Pic of the Week

Old buildings along Wilmington Street, December 2016

Demolition is taking place at the corner of Wilmington and Martin Streets, the former site of the future Edison Office tower. I say “former” tower because earlier this year, Highwoods Properties has acquired the parcel from the past developer. No plans are public yet for what the new owners might do with it.

When I took this photo on Tuesday of this week, it looked like some asbestos was being removed from the center building in the photo, where Reliable Loan was originally located. If full demolition is planned, I imagine in a few days these old Raleigh buildings will be gone.

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  1. It’s disappointing that it has taken so long to get something going in such a prime location. Maybe for the best, even the city must have vision that this would be a great spot for a well designed 30+ story tower. Hopefully the waiting will pay dividends here. Let’s hope!

  2. I hope the west side of Glenwood develops soon. I think Glenwood is one of few chances we have a true retail/restaurant strip… a location where people can park and walk to multiple different stores, shops, restaurants and bars. Hopefully once Glenwood 1 and 2 come in.. it pushes the west side across from 222 to develop into something great. Right now.. the two places that have such potential are between Plates and Snoopys on the west side.. and Glenwood towers.

  3. Jeff,
    I’m curious, why do you think they should have been saved? Also, did you mean the facades should have been saved or the whole buildings? (One of the buildings was just a façade for a while). I wouldn’t be opposed to saving facades, but these kinds of low-rise structures seem out of place downtown (given that as far as I know, none of them were especially historic or noteworthy. I know Reliable Loan had been there for a long time, but length of existence isn’t the same as ‘historic’).

    Regardless, what’s done is done. I’m with Bob, anything that doesn’t rival (or…surpass) the PNC building would be a disappointment to me. I’d personally be willing to wait a bit if we could get a signature building (something that makes people think of Raleigh).

  4. This site, the Enterprise lot (along with the lot next to Enterprise where Poole’s parking is), and the N&O campus should be where Raleigh’s (future) 3 tallest buildings are located.

  5. Yeahhhh, I’m with you @JWH – They suck. SkyHouse is at least a “tall” building, but the Edison apartments are just a joke. Like you said though, hopefully he never follows through, as usual.

  6. Agree about Sandrueter or whatever his name is. Until I see signature (very tall) structures developed by him moving forward. This guy is a joke!!!!

  7. Sandreuter may be a bit overly optimistic intitially, but he did get the Dawson on Morgan built at a time (2002-03 IIRC) when pretty much no one was doing residential in Downtown after having to go through size reductions and multiple redesigns to lower the cost. Then followed up with the 14 story (I think) West at North residential building built in a not so favorable time either. Many times it’s unimaginative lenders as much as anything which keeps projects simple, bland and short.

  8. I hope Kane continues to buy property.. he seems to be the only one building anything.. and building tall buildings. More buildings like the Dillon would be awesome!

  9. This piece of land has tremendous potential. Perhaps as much as the 301 site. However, anything along the lines of Dawson on Morgan or West would be an epic disappointment. Go tall with world-class architecture/design or the project fails in my view. I’d rather the land sit undeveloped than see more mediocre, poorly-designed buildings go up. DTR has plenty of those already.

    One look at their portfolio and I’m inclined to think they will miss the mark.

  10. Would love to see a tall high rise building there at least 40 stories tall. Better yet a few more high rise buildings that would make Raleigh pretty awesome city.

  11. I think that we have potential for several high rises in the next 10 years and the city should try to set some locations aside for that type of development. But honestly I think there is also a lot of demand and room left for the 4-6 story buildings. Love em or hate em, they go up quick and put residential foot traffic on the street. Downtown is getting taller and eventually the demand will take it higher than 4-6 stories. In another 30 years they will be tearing some of these stick built apartments down for bigger projects.

  12. agree with Will and Jake. A few other sites prime for tall development are the site across from the L where the Hilton Garden Inn was supposed to be…..The block just north of Nash Square where the suburban looking police headquarters and parking deck are….and the block just south of Red Hat building, which is mostly open with exception of Lincoln theatre and the historic house. Does anyone visit that house anyway? Can it be moved?

  13. Couldn’t agree more. I would actually include most of the block south of Nash Square as well. Lots of low-slung buildings there which, as far as I know, aren’t especially historic. I’d also include the southwest corner of Nash Square were the old Brewmaster’s space is (I’d love for them to keep that corner and the Neon Sign, and build a high rise on top).

    But, really the most concrete prospects right now are the N&O, and the old Edison spot. I’m also hoping the city decides to build an office tower where the old police station is, and get a long-term lease for the land under the current city hall. I know they were talking about consolidating all their city staff into a single “campus” of about 300,000 sq ft (about the size of the Red Hat building) but I really hope by “campus” they mean high rise.

  14. @Steve, there was supposed to be a tower across the north side of Nash Square that was supposed to consolidate city services into one building but that was killed nearly a decade ago amidst the slowing economy.

  15. John532,
    Ah, yes I remember the Lightner Center drama well. Part of the issue was that the city intended to raise taxes to pay for the construction, and part of it was that people complained it was too tall, and of course the economy didn’t help. The new proposal is supposed to come out sometime next summer (the city is supposedly going through an 18 month planning process). Since they’re not proposing any tax increases (they’re hoping to get most of their funding from the sale of some city-owned property downtown) and hopefully by then the Dillon, 309 Hillsborough, N&O and maybe even the new Sandreuter site will have towers in various stages of development will make any height arguments moot, they’ll be able to actually accomplish something similar this time.

  16. Supporting Jeff in that I too think these should have been saved (the original block of all 4 actually). Steve et.al, because “they don’t build ’em like they used to”, that’s why. Because they represent the beautiful 1877 history of the street. Because properly renovated beautiful historic buildings create the environment for successful, creative business districts. Have you ever set foot in Raleigh Times and thought, gee, this would be way better if it was a modern reinforced steel and concrete building? Have you even been to Soho or Georgetown and thought, wow this place sucks…? Where do you think the charm of those areas comes from? From the irreplaceable buildings that’s where. We have so precious few old buildings left, they should all be protected. Build the tall stuff somewhere else, not in place of the sweet old stuff. Downtown, blah blah..I’ve heard it all before. Downtown should be expanded, not written over top of. Dan Douglas had a great vision for expanding downtown north and taking out auto sewer Capital Blvd in its current form.

  17. If anyone is going over 30 stories it will be Kane. May not be where you want it! 301 (20 stories) is in for Administrative site as is One (10 stories) & Two Glenwood (7). Smokey Hollow is in also. I feel the demand has shifted west following Kane. The cranes will be in the Warehouse/GS areas. Edison & Charter North are behind. There are some great tracts between West & Harrington but One Glenwood is gonna have a view!

  18. What is the deal with charter square north? We saw a final rendering (supposedly) and then everything went quiet. Thought for sure they would have started before the summer was over. Isnt charter square south doing well as far as leased percentage?

  19. @Jeff @Mark I just want to stand up and be counted with you as a strong supporter of preservation. Mark, your post was a perfect explanation of the very good reasons for preserving older structures. And FOR those reasons, there are structures in Raleigh over which I would literally lie down in front of the bulldozers!

    That said, I wouldn’t support keeping these 3 patched together building fragments. They are just too far gone, and their location is just too important to downtown’s future to justify preservation in this particular case.

    Rather than rue the loss of these 3 shells, let’s celebrate what a great job they did of artfully expanding the 1820’s Christ Church.

    And let’s also remain vigilant for a future day when a developer comes along trying to take away a structure that is really worth preserving. I can pretty much guarantee you: that day WILL come when you least expect it. I’ve seen that scenario go down in other cities where I have lived. I even witnessed one case where the developers bulldozed a historic building, apologized profusely that it was all a terrible misunderstanding, and within a few weeks, they were already pouring cement into new footers! After that experience, NOTHING would surprise me.

  20. @Mark et. al,
    This may sound insincere, but I generally agree with the points you made. I was sad to see the old Cooper’s go, and believe that downtown has enough surface parking and unremarkable structures that we can be demolished (especially that block of auto businesses south of Nash Square). That being said, I agree with Renpark John, this block was lost a long time ago. Now that it’s been demolished, I whatever replaces it is of a high quality.

  21. Ah, I left a thought incomplete. I meant to say, we have enough surface parking and unremarkable structures that we should be protecting the limited supply of historical properties before they pass the point of no return.

  22. @Steve. I agree with you that there is still a lot of opportunity in DT Raleigh for redevelopment without killing our limited amount of history. I think it’s a huge false narrative that opportunity doesn’t exist. Heck, NYC finds opportunity for it all the time. If they can find it, Raleigh can find it. Without even expanding the boundary of downtown, there are lots of opportunities.
    In no particular order, I think those opportunities are:
    1. Surface parking lots % existing parking (only) structures
    2. Outdated government buildings like the training center on Peace across from Seaboard
    3. Unremarkable or notable single story buildings
    4. That horrible hair curler Holiday Inn (I’m sorry…I have tried to imagine it becoming seen as a good piece of architecture as it gets older but it just isn’t happening.
    5. Glenwood Towers – That building is at the end of its useful life and while it’s a tower, it’s land use is suburban and wastes a lot of precious real estate.
    6. The Warehouse District. In particular, most of the warehousse across the street from the Dillon on the West Street are not remarkable. If they can be saved in parts like the Dillon or Citrix, that’s fine but I don’t think it’s necessary for all of them. That said, the smaller buildings on the south side of the 300 block of W. Martin are worth preserving. It’s going to be like cherry picking if you ask me.
    7. The east side of Glenwood South after the road and bridge configurations are complete. There is TONS of opportunity there for redevelopment.

  23. Speaking of old buildings that give Raleigh character that will soon be demolished: have you all heard about Father and Son on Hargett St? Rumor is that it will be demo’d for an “Entrance” to the N&O development. I was so excited for that development until I heard this news yesterday. Of course, the Father and Son building is very old and probably in need of renovations, but what a shame that they are being completely kicked out. They are *trying* to find a suitable location for another retail space in Downtown Raleigh, but with rent as high as it is, there’s a good chance we’ll lose them to Durham. We need a rent cap program in place NOW. For retail, and apartments. It’s getting ridiculous, and when a long running (almost 20 years), locally owned downtown retailer that actually adds character to our city – let alone a tourist destination – can’t even afford to move to a new location in its own city, THAT IS A PROBLEM. Raleigh will soon become Corporate Town. It’s despicable.

  24. @Jake,
    I don’t expect you to agree with what I’m about to say (which is fine) but your post deserves a thoughtful response. First, I agree that the city should support locally-owned businesses, because I think they add character and create a sense of identity for the community. However, I think a rent cap is a terrible idea.

    At it’s most basic, the rising rents downtown are due to a lack of supply. Downtown doesn’t have a large retail center and retail vacancies are extremely low. A rent cap wouldn’t do anything to address this problem, and would almost certainly exacerbate it. Lenders would be less willing to lend, and developers would look at other markets. Rather than put a cap on rents, I think it’s a better idea for the city to offer upfitting grants for locally-owned businesses, so they can cover their upfront capital costs without taking on large debt burdens. Second, the city should continue to encourage retail, perhaps even multi-story retail (rather than just the “ground floor retail” everyone talks about).

    Lastly, Durham may be “taking” some of Raleigh’s stores right now, but rents in downtown Durham aren’t far behind those in Raleigh.

  25. Agreed…
    But what is laughable is that Raleigh is no where near being a corporate town…IMHO
    Raleigh tends to loose corporate HQ’s all the time. We seem to be more of a place for large companies to locate small groups…?

  26. It would take a 10 to 15 acre tract of land to build a baseball stadium . I’m guessing that this would apply for a soccer stadium . Where in the world would this happen in downtown ? I would love to see a stadium downtown , but very much wonder where? Maybe Hammond Rd. or S. Sanders St. ?

  27. The 3 building shells that were the topic of this “Pic of the Week” were leveled this afternoon (Friday, 12-9-2016). It took from about 2:00 to 2:10 to remove them. Hopefully, that is also a sign that something new is soon to rise up there. The site is cleared and ready to go.

  28. @Dwight: “It would take a 10 to 15 acre tract of land to build…a soccer stadium . Where in the world would this happen in downtown?”

    I don’t have an answer to your question, but I’ll offer one opinion about it: if the North Carolina FC don’t play in a new stadium within one mile (two miles at the very most) of the capitol building downtown, their dream of capturing the community’s imagination will be DOA. IMHO, enlarging at their current location would result in them being unable to break out above their past attendance numbers.

  29. There are multiple sites in and around the city center that are options for a new stadium, some are city owned, others private. The City has multiple sites selected for a ‘stadium/arena’ with the thinking that PNC arena will eventually move downtown or minor league baseball…and now potentially the MLS. Plus at the end of the day, that’s what bulldozers are for.

    Just think of the crap lining Capital Blvd inbound and outbound as well as S.Saunders inbound/outbound. Even New Bern Avenue might have a couple options. Probably 90% of the current properties on those streets are what I’d refer to as “bulldozer ready” :)

  30. IMO, the best options are south of Downtown. While I agree that inbound and outbound of Capital needs lots of love, none of the properties close to DT are large enough for a stadium. Even Devereux Meadows is too small. The best site is one where the city would have to relocate low income residents and I think that they should not be uprooted from their neighborhood. If the city could create new digs for them in the immediate neighborhood, the current site of Heritage Park might be the perfect location. In total, the land area appears to be large enough for an urban soccer stadium. I can imagine it built with street level businesses along South Street and South Saunders. It’s a walkable location to existing parking by the convention & performing arts centers and it’s not far from Union Station. Access by car could hardly be better with McDowell, Dawson, S. Saunders and MLK feeding it.
    An urban stadium in this neighborhood could activate more urban development southward on S. Saunders and up the hill on Lake Wheeler toward the new park at Dix Hill.

    This leads me to a second option: Place the stadium next to the State Farmer’s Market on Lake Wheeler. While not as walkable and ideal as the South/S. Saunders location, it’s still reasonably close to DT proper and could activate more development in the corridor. access to i40 is practically immediate and parking could be shared with the Farmer’s Market with a new structure between them. The Farmer’s Market itself could be expanded to include more shopping and dining opportunities to make it a richer experience and that entire corner could act like a front door to the the Dix Hill park with lots of “down home” experiences for the visitors. This option wouldn’t take up much land in the park and could be the city’s contribution to making the MLS team happen without displacing residents. Views from the stadium toward the skyline would be terrific from the upper stands and TV coverage perspective. The location would activate the emerging urbanesque village on Maywood and that area could turn into really cool little community and encourage more urban housing.

  31. Renpark John , Uncle Jesse , John 532 , Thanks for your thoughts on my post ! I think all of you have some very good ideas about a sports / soccer stadium for our city . Hopefully , we will hear about a location by the spring . Down the road , the city has mention that they want to have development done @ The Cargill Site . It will be interesting , that’s for sure !

  32. Would love to see the Cargill site redeveloped. WRT soccer stadium wouldn’t displace residents plus it would do wonders for adjacent areas such as South Park. Not that far from downtown proper.

    If S. Blount St. were closed the dilapidated parcels to east could be included. The city also owns a lot of land at City Farm Rd. I did some checking a while back and Carter Finley stadium fits here albeit tightly.

  33. Quick additions to the historic thought s…..1) the block in question was not lost a long time ago. Almost everything facing Wilmington was standing five years ago. In the late 90’s there were still fine Italianate buildings facing Martin and the extension to Sanders Ford (art space) was taken down as part of the tinker toy parking deck. Sure that facade was altered but all the original wood inside was intact and ripe for soho style posts to be built. As far as imminent losses…NC Equipment Company, Maiden Lane (don’t tell me they’re run down frat houses, it’s a National Register Historic District), the Hick Mansion next to Flying Saucer, the NC School for the deaf and blind broom and mattress factory, numerous houses in east Raleigh that date to ore 1914 ( quick Sanborn lookups I’ve done), possibly (as stated) Father and Sons building was the Edwards and Broughton publishing company…..and the only “historic” loss making news is a metal shed on Buffalo Rd (mind you the actual Buffalo house was a controledl FD burn a while back and nobody gave a flip)

  34. You can use the pane to the left to create an outline of any stadium that you want to mimic and then use the pane to the right to zoom in and zoom out of possible locations within Raleigh.

  35. Hey Mike , Actually I have heard a Atlantic League Investor mention Central Prison location as a wishful opportunity ! Man , I would love to see this happen ! Thanks for the info. !

  36. Heard from someone who is in contact with Mr. Malik and they are looking at a location close to the warehouse district for the arena. Also the possibility of them getting the MLS bid is almost a 100% . If they do win the bid they will look to start building arena by next year. Really hope it all goes through would be awesome to have the arena downtown or within walking distance to downtown.

  37. Central Prison isn’t going anywhere. The amount of money to move a prison and then build a stadium would be obscene. Come on people.

  38. How feasible is the Cargill site for a stadium? I feel redevelopment there could really change the character of an entire section of town for the better. Could be easlily accessible from the interstate and could allow for a rail stop, could it not? Would look pretty cool from the south looking toward downtown on I-40. Excited to see where this goes.

  39. @John532. That’s cool tool. Thanks for sharing. Just wish there were a way to rotate outline drawn.

    As an exercise (and also as an easy way to rotate) I scaled a piece of paper to the size of BBVA Compass Stadium in Houston. This 22,039 seat stadium (plus surrounding land) sits on approx. 620′ x 1000′ site which is about 14.25 acres. Looking at Warehouse District at same scale I can’t imagine where a “close” location might be.

    As I’ve mentioned before the Cargill site could work (if S. Blount St were closed) and so too could the area bounded by Hoke St., Garner Rd. , Saint’s Ave. and Person St. (if S. Bloodworth St. were closed). I’m looking forward to hearing more on where those proposed 8 sites are!

  40. What about the area near GS bordered by 1) Kane’s Smokey Hollow development and new Johnson St. exit to the north, 2) West St. to the west, 3) Capital Blvd. to the east, and 4) the West Condominiums to the south? Think it could fit there?

    Or maybe somewhere inbetween Lenoir St., Boylan Heights neighborhood, and the RR tracks? (Basically where the old Amtrak station is).

    Or–pipedream–tear down the ugly, old Archdale building, “straighten” Salisbury and Wilmington Streets, and build it at the north end of govt. plaza. If you’ve ever noticed the layout of Washington, DC, RFK stadium is located in a straight line with the Capitol Mall. This would be the same layout, on a smaller scale. (The straight line being from DECPA, Fayetteville St., Capitol, Legislature, Plaza, stadium).

    I really wish it could be placed on one of those blank govt. area surface parking lots as part of Project Phoenix, but I don’t think any one of them is large enough. Plus, the NC State Bar building would probably be in the way.

  41. @Will, I played with Glenwood South and there doesn’t seem to be a piece of land or a collection of possible blocks that will support a stadium. The same is true for the Warehouse District. This is why I have talked about the Heritage Park as one of the only parcels that seems to actually work. It does come with a huge issue of relocating those living in Heritage Park. I would expect that to be more than just a little issue.
    That said, as DT progresses and as public housing nears the end of its useful life, replicating suburban model public housing on large swaths of downtown land shouldn’t happen regardless of a stadium location. If the Heritage site were to be used, I would only be supportive if the replacement housing stayed in the immediate community. I don’t support displacing residents from their community for others’ amusement. Maybe I’m naive but I think that all could be accommodated if care in the process was pursued.

  42. @Will, I actually played with that exact plot of land on the east side of Glenwood South but it doesn’t appear to be large enough. Unfortunately, even the existing stadium in Cary won’t fit on that plot using the tool and including the promenade around the perimeter of the actual stadium. It would take some really creative designer to cram it in there.

  43. Will, a while ago I tried to scale out the lot immediately west of the Archdale if you also tore down the crumbling parking deck (it has exposed rebar and generally sucks) too, and perhaps straightened Salisbury (I know, that makes the plot smaller, but more functional I think). Anyway….it received a bid as part of Project Phoenix with no real details on what they wanted to do with it (sans the parking deck). Anyway I used some existing stadium data I found online and it seemed like the stadium only, would just barely fit. The idea is to use the State parking garage for game parking (the newer one with red railings, also on Salisbury).

  44. Orlando City’s stadium under construction fits at the Glenwood South (Wake Co. GSA) site if you straighten Harrington. It also fits at the Red Hat Ampht. block if you close Lenoir and combine the gravel lot to the south.

  45. What about the block with Blount to the East, Cabarrus to the North, Wilmington to the West and East St. to the South? It’s small but could potentially work. Shaw could also play their home football games there.

  46. @William I really like that idea! It seems that if the stadium goes downtown, no matter where it goes there will have to be some street diversion/closure. Y’all think the city would go for that?

  47. I realize this is a “pie in the sky” idea but here goes … Perhaps the city should spearhead a redevelopment effort (public/private) on parcels just south of Boylan Wye? This would include Clancy & Theys construction, 3119 Associates LLC and parcels on west and north side of Dupont Cir. These parcels are industrial which is a land use no longer in keeping with surrounding properties.

    Combined parcels add up to almost 9 acres. Build low/moderate income and market rate high density housing which is much more in keeping with surrounding neighborhood. The NIMBY’s might come out in full force to protest the low-income housing element which would be unfortunate. It’s my understanding that these mixed income developments are much more effective at maintaining housing standards than dedicated low-income housing projects. Give folks currently living at Heritage Park first choice for housing in new development. Redevelop Heritage Park into a new soccer stadium complex with mixed use elements that would support surrounding neighborhood.

    I have to say that in principle I’m very much against city dollars supporting a sports franchise. I believe I’ve read that Malik is willing to “go it alone” when it comes to building a stadium but at the end of the day I’m pretty sure the only way a stadium can be built in or around downtown proper is with the city’s financial involvement. As such, any project undertaken needs to give the city a decent ROI if at all possible. This is one of the big reasons why I’m a supporter of the Cargill site. The city’s investment in having area redeveloped would come back in the form of increased tax revenue as surrounding areas come up in value. The same might hold true for redevelopment of south Boylan Wye properties, not sure. Property values in surrounding area are already high. Perhaps increased tax value on redeveloped Boylan site (and redeveloped Heritage Park site) would be enough.

    Another site that might work in place of south Boylan Wye for a mixed income housing development sponsored by the city are blocks bounded by Bragg, Blount, Hoke, and Person. This is former Trailways station which was recently torn down. Again, allow folks currently residing at Heritage Park first choice of housing here. This doesn’t exactly keep folks in their neighborhood but it’s close. A development of this kind would also support South Park.

  48. @Stew, thank you for sharing your ideas about how to free up the space at the current Heritage Park. As you can tell from my previous comments, I truly believe that is the best location the city has for variety of reasons:
    1. It’s an urban location that can actually activate additional urban experience to its south and support more urban density in the immediate area.
    2. It’s strategically located between Dix Park and the very core of DT proper
    3. It’s walkable to the convention center and existing parking
    4. It’s walkable to Union Station
    5. It’s easily accessible by car from the south and the north and that section of Western/MLK is robust. There are several ways to enter and exit the area by car.
    6. It’s big enough for a stadium and it can be located without disrupting the main street grid of the city. No thru-roads need to be interrupted (like how Fayetteville St is disrupted by the performing arts center)

  49. As the rest of you discuss the merits of various sites for a new soccer stadium in or near downtown, I’d like to take the opportunity to repeat something I’ve said before: Whoever hatched the idea to place an above-grade expressway-style clover-leaf ramp system at [what should have been] the simple intersection of Dawson and Western needs to find a different line of work. That decision haunts the 21st streetscape of Raleigh. If you actually know the person responsible, don’t tell me – I really don’t want to know!

  50. @RenparkJohn,
    I’d place my money on the same people who didn’t want to take Capital to grade at Peace Street.
    The frustrating thing about MLK/Western overpass is that it draws a line in the sand that tells us where DT needlessly ends. The same is basically true for the Wade Ave overpass at Capital Blvd on the north end of DT.

  51. @John532…we’re all aware of the losing citizens battle to bring Peace/Capital to grade. EVERYONE knew it was the right thing to do, but our City Government just wasn’t ready to shift forward to 20th century design thinking (we weren’t asking for the 21st century, mind you).

    As for bringing Western/Dawson to grade…EVERYONE knows it’s the right thing to do. I’m not expecting to see it in my lifetime. :-) Anyway, what would RPD do without that bridge as a speed trap!

  52. The best way to support the team is to continue to speculate, but also go out and buy season tickets to the 2017 season. Malik will go it alone but he has already indicated the he does have some conditions:

    1. Public backing via fan attendance
    2. Increased support from the business community
    3. Commitment from the city for a partnership. Building out roads, sewer, power, etc he he has or flip the stadium.

    Our part is community support. It’s a bright future

  53. Bought 4 season tickets this week myself. There is an 18-pack deal for $280 that gives you flexibility to go to one game with 17 friends or 4, 4 and 4, or whatever scenario works best for you. But YES, we all need to do our part and purchase some season tickets, even if its 1 or 2.

  54. Heritage Park is the best site but better for Canes not soccer. Central Prison isn’t going anywhere. They have spent $$ on new buildings etc to move. Cargill has potential as they have shifted production to other sites and debated moving. Soccer will be near I-40/440 & parking not downtown. Moore Square renovations plans are in.

  55. I will always support Canes first!!!
    And everyone should support Canes. It’s OUR pro team (young and exciting – will be getting ver good very soon for many years to come).
    I want new Canes and State stadium downtown!!
    O may go to Soccer fame onc a year. When that one game gas no goals or just one, scoring, which is every game, then I am gone (or I fall asleep at a game and get robbed).

  56. The MLK/Western interchange was designed in the 80’s when I-40 ended in Cary. South Saunders was the main road from Southern Wake county and Johnston County. South Saunders was pieced together as a bypass for Wilmington st, which was the main road previously. MLK was pieced together around the same time to provide a east-west thoroughfare. Large chunks of historic black neighborhoods were destroyed to create the two roads. Putting an at grade intersection there would have been seen as irrational. The area was also kind of a place where you didn’t want to stop.

    Pics of the neighborhood destroyed:

  57. @bam,
    I was in college in the early 80s and, at that time, Western Blvd died into Boylan Heights. I remember that one of my professors that lived there was fighting the current bypass and link of Western to MLK due to neighborhood destruction. Also as that time, I-40 did not end in Cary; it connected through to the Beltline and completed it but it didn’t extend passed Garner toward the beach yet. I think that was around 1982 if I am remembering correctly. The need to enable traffic toward US70 southbound at that time was there but it certainly wasn’t a new requirement. And, given that the plans/works were already in the progress to extend 40 to the coast by the early 90s, it doesn’t make sense to me that this was the primary impetus to the Western/MLK overpass. The east/west connection on the southern side of the city seems to make more sense as the primary driver (pun intended).
    In fact, if my memory is not failing me, it doesn’t seem to me that there was all that much time that passed between this overpass completion and the completion of 40 to Wilmington. When I say “all that much time”, I mean a few years+ but certainly less than 10.

  58. Looks like North Hills is taking over! I really like North Hills and happy they are doing so well and its great they are now going to have a 31 story building… HOWEVER… why can’t we get more of that DOWNTOWN?? It drives me crazy!

  59. Not that impressed with all the tan/stucco and simple building designs on original side of North Hills (has an awful suburban feel).

    The sidewalk atmosphere on the West side is horrible.
    Let’s be realistic, this area IS NOT a Midtown (they grabbed that term and ran with it, it is NOT a Midtown and will never call it Midtown – its just North Hills)

    Focus on Downtown!!!
    Kane should increase the height of Peace Street Building that is planned (from 11 to 25 minimum).
    Downtown is where the height should be located.

    North Hills is becoming a parking nightmare and now I am starting to stay away (and I have been going there since the North Hills Mall was in that location (driving through there and parking there has gone down hill, he did not leave enough room for lanes and traffic))

  60. @Stew, Thanks for the link. Very interesting. The other travesty to DT was the disruption of Fayetteville Street by Memorial Auditorium. The land use of Fayetteville St north of Memorial couldn’t be more different from it south of MLK. The new Walnut Terrace is particularly cringe worthy when it comes to DT land use decision making. It may as well be in Cary and the city is now stuck with that suburban disrupter near its core for generations. It should have at least been built like Capital Park on the north end of DT. It could have been built on half the land or it could have had double the current capacity.
    There’s very few, if any, public decisions made from Western/MLK southbound that would suggest that the city is even interested in expanding its core.

  61. I am happy with what has happened at North Hills and I think that area helps make Raleigh a more “legit” city. I do think it is running out of room and it will be interesting to see the development that is suppose to take place inside that Beltline on Glenwood near Woman’s club dr.

    Downtown is where the majority of the potential is. There is so much room to grow DT for urban development. I don’t see us making this argument about North Hills 5-10 years from now.

  62. I like how areas beyond downtown proper that weren’t before are now a part of the DTR conversation. A well designed stadium just south or north of Downtown could create new focal points for redevelopment of areas along S. Saunders and Wilmington or Capital.

    Perhaps a stadium could spur more substantial planning around an at-grade intersection of Western/Martin Luther King Jr/Dawson-McDowell. It is hard for me to imagine but this interchange should be demolished or reworked.

    I’m still fairly optimistic about Midtown Raleigh which I think will eventually be broader than ‘North Hills’. There have been missed opportunities but there is still a lot of potential yet to be tapped.

  63. How about the St Aug football stadeum site? Could this work as a dual use site? The size seems more than adequate. The area is mostly residential but fairly close to downtown.

  64. John532, slight correction…Fayetteville always jogged off slightly SW from the Memorial Auditorium parcel. That is the original pre columbian alignment (meaning, indian path). You can see this clearly on the 1872 Drie map, and for a larger view, the 1871 Bevers map of the county shows it streaking off and becoming what is now Old Stage Road (among other maps). But I agree the grid needs expanded or in this case, re-expanded.

  65. This won’t come up on google….best zoomable version of the Drie map. Hours of fun comparing to google maps and Sanborn maps. My dream is to get a photo of as many pictures as possible from this map and put a quick history of each visible with a mouseover.

  66. @Mark. Thanks for the clarification for everyone. I was aware that it wasn’t a straight shot but its continuation is disrupted nonetheless and the differences couldn’t be more night & day from each other.

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