Multiple Rezoning Requests on the Table

Dillon Supply Company in downtown Raleigh's Warehouse District

There’s a nice cluster of rezoning requests at the city right now that could bring new development to where there is currently none or very little existing activity. The RalCon commenters have been all over it recently so I wanted to bring it up top for more exposure.

Rezoning requests don’t sound exciting but it does fuel the rumor mill. While I enjoy speculation at a “for entertainment purposes only” approach I think we should lay out what’s on the table and what the comprehensive plan says about these areas.

To date, none of the requests discussed here have been approved or denied. They have only been submitted.

301 Hillsborough Street and 320 W. Morgan Street

Case number Z-038-14 has been discussed on the blog before. It’s the site of the parking lot used by Campbell Law school along Dawson Street between Morgan and Hillsborough Street. If you need a refesher, we talked about it back in October of 2014.

The request is for a DX-20-SH. In short, that means Downtown Mixed Use zoning with a 20 story max height and a shopfront frontage.

The latest update on this rezoning request is that there are some big projects being discussed behind closed doors. The N&O writes:

The city government has been entertaining at least two “substantial and serious offers” from private developers for the 1.2-acre property. Now the city has moved to apply a new set of development rules to the land, potentially clearing the way for a private construction project.

*Raleigh files to allow 20-story buildings at 301 Hillsborough St.

On the opposite side of the coin, there are a group of residents that are against the rezoning. The Central CAC has voted against this rezoning in a recent meeting. The article also states that The Dawson residents are against the rezoning and instead want the height to be capped at 7 stories instead of 20.

The last piece of this story that I’ll share is what the comprehensive plan says about this area. Here are quotes from it that seem relevant.

Reinforce the William Christmas Plan by encouraging prominent buildings and uses to be developed along axial streets (i.e. Hillsborough, Fayetteville, and New Bern) and the squares. (1, 3, 4, 6)

Highest density development should occur along the axial streets (Hillsborough Street, Fayetteville Street and New Bern Avenue), major streets (as identified by the Street plan), surrounding the squares, and within close proximity to planned transit stations.

327 & 309 Hillsborough Street and 324 & 328 W. Morgan Street

Case Z-39-14 is right next door and is for the same DX-20-SH zoning. This would be the western half of the same block that has 301 Hillsborough mainly along Harrington Street.

This seems like the same story as before. The same height concerns are mentioned by the residents at The Dawson. The same comprehensive plan applies to this lot as does 301 Hillsborough.

603 S. Wilmington Street and 112 & 114 E. Lenoir Street

Moving off Hillsborough Street, case Z-42-14, is a request for a DX-12-UG-CU zoning. If you’re following along, that’s downtown mixed-use at 12 story maximum with an urban general frontage, conditional use. An urban general frontage means that while the building is up against the sidewalk, ground floor retail space may or may not be there. It allows for walk up townhomes, an office lobby, or something similar.

The property in question here is where the Baptist Headquarters Building is located next to the McDonald’s facing Wilmington Street. According to the TBJ article, plans for a hotel are in the works and the rezoning would allow it to be as tall as 12 stories.

A hotel developer has submitted plans with the city to rezone a piece of property within the Prince Hall Historic District in downtown Raleigh for a hotel and office building that could stretch as high as 12 stories tall.

*New 12-story hotel proposed for downtown Raleigh

Taking a look at the comprehensive plan, this area seems to have the same density and urban core concepts as the rest of downtown. Close by is the start of an identified transition area, one that steps down towards the nearby neighborhoods.

The image below shows a piece of the map whereby the areas in blue have been identified as transitional. The map is just a guide however and with it being in a historic district I bet this topic gets heated.

401, 403 & 406 W. Hargett Street, 223 S. West Street, 410 W. Martin Street, & 126, 210 & 218 S. Harrington Street

Case Z-1-15 involves quite a few properties in the warehouse district near Union Station. This request is for DX-20-CU, downtown mixed use at 20 stories maximum, conditional use. The grandest building here is the Dillon Supply Warehouse, pictured at the top of this post, which is a real cornerstone of our warehouse district in terms of size and potential.

Just like the other areas mentioned in this post, this area again is identified as needing high-intensity development as it is in the downtown.

The developer here seems to be Kane Realty Corp, the group behind North Hills. If you take a look at the zoning request the “neighborhood” meeting was held up at the North Hills offices with only 4 Raleighites attending.

The writing is on the wall that the city wants this area to be hugely successful due to the upcoming Raleigh Union Station project. (set to break ground in less than 10 weeks) If you attended enough of the Union Station meetings, there is also another component that is seen as hugely needed adjacent to Union Station. Lots of new parking was seen as a huge need here and I wouldn’t be surprised if a big parking deck component is put in this area to accommodate that.

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  1. Interesting reading, and just making my way thru it. A question, though. The second proposal at Hillsborough and Morgan is news to me, but wouldn’t that mean demolishing the Flying Saucer? I can’t see that being very popular…

  2. CAC – Get Lost! Sick of your childish bitching (MOVE OUT if you don’t like towers over 20 stories – Raleigh CANNOT waste anymore prime real estate downtown)
    You want low profile, move to the burbs. No one cares what The Dawson residents think, that building should have never been built on that prime lot.
    So, CAC, the new building should be 25 to 35 stories. Less than 20 is out of the question (or the city continues to waste prime real estate).
    My preference, they level “The Dawson” and put up a new Taller/Bigger development.

  3. Comical, all these people want to live in the city but dont want to live next to a city sized building…

  4. If I remember correctly the orginal plan for the Dawson was bigger than what was built. The climate was different a dozen years ago and it was difficult to get financing lined up for a tall condo building in downtown Raleigh. Still not a cakewalk but at least there is precedent now.

    I guess if the original vision has been realized all those people would have never moved there.

  5. Many of you said how I feel more bluntly. I know most would like to see towers above 20 stories and so do I. I feel that anytime we get rid of an old building that is one story and we get one that is better(such as a 12 story hotel), it’s a victory. It will be interesting to see how this all unfolds as these projects roll out. Hopefully we get several towers.

  6. I said this in another thread, but the Central CAC is a joke. It’s full of folks that live in South Park and rarely have dealings in downtown proper. The meetings I’ve attended have almost exclusively been about issues in that area and downtown proper was rarely mentioned. We need a new CAC for the downtown area and they need a CAC for their area. It just doesn’t make sense.

  7. IBM has indicated they plan to open an “innovation center” but it will not be in the Park. They have opened similar hubs in other cities around the world, including Austin and they are in the downtown areas. Anybody got more Intel on IBMs plans for Raleihh?

  8. I live in North Central CAC and the western boundary extends all the way to West St. Issues discussed typically focus on the Idlewild and College Park neighborhood. Oakwood is also in the NCCAC but they have their own neighborhood association and rarely attend.

    Representatives from Link Apartments, West II, and Elan Apartments have all made presentations to the NCCAC, a requirement for obtaining a building permit as I understand it. I found this ludicrous then and still do today as the focus of the NCCAC is rarely on these areas.

    Back in the day when CAC boundaries were decided on there probably wasn’t enough downtown residential to be of consequence but today the situation is vastly different. I think the unique priorities of the downtown area warrant a separate CAC zone. I did hear a while back that new CAC boundaries are being contemplated. I would think organizations such as DLA would be advocating for it.

    Lastly I will say that CAC’s are “advisory” in nature only and have no actual governmental power but do hold some power of influence over those on city council. The hold up on approving Transit’s plan to redevelop Stone’s Warehouse serves as the perfect example.

  9. Well, I came here to say something mean and make fun of the CAC but I think y’all have got that covered! So instead, I will say that while I like to see Kane Realty wanting to start putting development money into the actual city of Raleigh, instead of that glorified mall Kane likes to humorously call “Midtown” (LOL)- it does make me a BIT worried, given that everything he does seems to be mildly generic. I would hate to see him “North Hills” up the suitably grungy Warehouse District, if you know what I’m saying. I want to see Raleigh go the direction of Asheville, NC in terms of shops, boutiques, restaurants (which we’re already winning in), and culture… and I don’t see Kane Realty exactly encouraging that “mom and pop” atmosphere. Instead, I see him developing a nice, big, beautiful building…. and then putting a chain restaurant or corporate big box store in the streetfront space (I say this because the anchor store for his Stanhope Center project on Hillsborough is CVS- not entirely a bad thing, I just hope it’s the ONLY chain store that ends up there).

  10. @ Everyone: Would all of you consider e-mailing the city council asking them to support the zoning requests of the 20 story projects @ 301 Hillsborough St.,Dillon Supply Area, 12 story hotel on 603 S. Wilmington St.? I have done this! You can e-mail all the councilors @ the same time @ this address, Thanks! Dwight Nipper

  11. Dwight,

    e-mailed them. Added details to e-mail about the zones you mention in your post, to the point, but polite.
    City Council cannot approve these low profile buildings in our downtown anymore. They continue to waste prime real estate with these pathetic “The Dawson” and “The Hue” type projects. 301 should not be a maximum of 20 stories, it should be a minimum of 20 stories (city council and downtown Raleigh need to step into the 21st century). All towers from this point (start of 2015) should be a minimum of 20 stories. We need density, hotel rooms, living spaces, retail, entertainment, conveniences, etc..
    Also, absolutely NO tan or stucco (Kane’s ugly North Hills look) in OUR Warehouse District. Build towers with brick, some glass, stone (we not not want an ugly glass skyline like Charlotte).
    Warehouse district needs to maintain character (ie, Citrix), but be VERY vertical (minimum of 20 story buildings, cannot waste real estate in this area, have to go vertical and be very dense)

  12. @Jeff

    I see that as a great move by the owner of that lot; I’d do the same. If that whole block can be combined into 1 large development, it’d be best for the urban core. Plus, I imagine the developer will give Flying Saucer rights to first selection of the retail space in the bottom of whatever’s built, if they so choose.

  13. The Central CAC is completely out of touch with the realities on the ground. I can’t think of many other places downtown that would be better suited for 20-story buildings.

    The other reality is that they may scream loud enough that the developer would be forced into building a 10-12 story midrise to satisfy “height concerns”. This would lead to the developers paying less for the land because of less development entitlement. Therefore, the city would lose money and Raleigh would lose a chance to enhance the skyline.

  14. Regarding the Kane comment, they mentioned in the N&O article today they want it to fit in with the Warehouse District and . Their renderings of the Stanhope Center seem to look like it fits in w/the NCSU architecture.

    “Kane said his group would try to preserve as much of the 67,000-square-foot Dillon warehouse building as possible.

    “I think we’d try to do something that would fit into the warehouse district. Something that would feel a little out of the box, not your traditional office tower,” Kane said. “Something a little bit different. Maybe not as out there as Citrix, but something that would fit into the warehouse district.””

  15. Dwight, I have also emailed the Council. I’m not sure if they will change their minds, but if enough of us show them how we feel, maybe seeing how many of us support those projects will make them realize that more large-scale developments are needed in downtown Raleigh. Fingers crossed they get approved, regardless.

  16. The TBJ has a article this afternoon stating that John Kane wants to build 2 towers in the warehouse district between 13 & 20 stories. One a office tower & the other a residential tower.
    Dwight Nipper

  17. I wouldn’t worry too much about the CAC voting for small buildings. CACs are by definition parochial and council is not legally bound to abide by their guidance.

  18. A Miami developer has done something that might be relevant to the Warehouse District. Instead of plowing over a lowrise building of some historic value, they have incorporated the facades of the building into their design. In effect, the tower steps back and rises from within the existing building while retaining the existing streetscape vernacular. I’ve been trying to find the link to send but can’t find it right now. If I find it, i’ll forward.

  19. Thanks Anthony, Simon, Orulz, & Everyone for e-mailing the city council. “So Appreciate This”!
    Last Tuesday Night @ the 7p.m. council meeting I spoke in front of the council for support of a downtown police/fire headquarters on next year’s budget. They allowed me 3 minutes.I actually ask the council if they would use the Lightner Plans of a 12,13,14,17, story version, since these plans have already been paid for. I have received from 3 council members saying they support a downtown location for the police/fire headquarters. They could not give a time line on this project. Just a gut feeling, but I believe that there are 2 more members that are leaning toward a downtown location. Anyway, I wanted to pass this info. to everyone. Dwight Nipper

  20. @orulz Yes, they are an advisory board, but the N&O will still give them exposure in the press if they vehemently oppose tall buildings.

    @Dwight Nipper glad to hear there is still political support for the Lightner Center plan and that you took the time to express your own support at Council. I think both city hall AND the old police building need to be bulldozed and rebuilt. City Hall is an ugly and unwelcoming building.

  21. @ Squirrelchat, I didn’t mean to miss inform anyone! @ this point 3 council members have said that they do support a downtown location but only 1 said they like the past plans & that he would probably talk to Mr. Hall in the future. Also a good friend of mine called me last night. He was with Mr. Kane & his right hand man David Parker for 2 hours yesterday & many things look good for Raleigh these next few years. Dwight Nipper

  22. @John, I don’t know the building in Miami, but the Hearst Building in New York did the same thing. They took the old original Hearst headquarters, which was a 6 story, cast-iron building and built a new tower inside. Google ‘hearst building nyc’ and you’ll see what I mean.

    Kane so far has said he wants to keep as much as the old buildings as he can. To me, if they don’t keep the facade, it will be a disaster. Obviously they may need to add an entrance or something, but leveling it seems out of the question.

  23. Hi Steve. Thanks for the info on Hearst Tower. I do have to say that the original Hearst building certainly has a lot more architectural appeal than the Dillon Warehouse. Honestly, crucify me if you must, but I don’t think the Dillon warehouse is an architectural standout at all especially when compared to the old tobacco warehouses in Durham with their beautifully detailed brickwork.

    I acknowledge though that Dillion is a big part of the historical fabric and a big contributor to the overall “vibe” we all want to see maintained for the district.

    Getting back to the Hearst Tower I actually think the overall result looks quite odd because the style of the old building and new tower don’t complement each other well. Hopefully Kane will do better.

  24. Stew, I agree about the Dillon architecture (My words: there is absolutely nothing there – I was at HQ Raleigh yesterday and looked at Dillon building much more closely – WOW, ugly – it’s a simple box).
    This building should be leveled.

    What needs to take place? answer: constructing all the new buildings to fit seamlessly with the 100 year + history of what the area actually is – (A Warehouse District).
    NO Stucco, No TAN or Slate (like BBT building) colors, NO building finishes that look like a suburban/airport hotel.
    Build this as if it was being built 100+ years ago for Dillon, but with size, style, character and vision (Example: NYC Flat Iron Building). Great Thought! Our own Raleigh Flat Iron Building (how appropriate for this area of STEEL)!! Steel, Brick and Glass would be the IDEAL exterior finish for these structures!
    Kane: give this thought, do it right, in this case, money should be no object (even with a budget). This can be one of 3-4 center pieces in this district and in downtown.

  25. The Miami project doesn’t look nearly as incongruent to its context as the Hearst Tower.

    If we don’t keep the Dillon Buildings, the new structures should honor the integrity of the neighborhood with tectonic/Industrial styled buildings that could have been built in that era: think Walter Gropius designs or other bauhaus inspired buildings. Those would be fitting to the period of the neighborhood. CAM did a great job of being the right type of architecture in the hood as did Citrix to an extent.

  26. Yep. I’m with you Anthony. We used to have a saying in the Navy that seems to apply here. “You can’t polish a t*rd”. Kane should raze the warehouse and build something great that’s in keeping with the history and legacy of the area.

  27. I will be moving to downtown at the beginning of March from out of state. I had read on this site earlier that the Devon was built with concrete and steel and not wood. Does anyone know what other downtown apts. or condos are built that way? I assume they are much quieter between floors and apts and I am trying to narrow my search. This would be a plus in my opinion. Any info or opinions on the different buildings would be a great help to me. Thanks!!

  28. Look at TBJ. Kane building first AC Hotel by Marriott. That rendering for a couple towers downtown would fit in very well in the Warehouse District (I said earlier no gray color, but in this case, its very subtle – I like this design).

    The new Residence Inn next to Convention Center (this AC Hotel design blows the current Residence Inn design away). What is the deal with City Council! The Residence design should be pulled TODAY and replaced with a design that is more urban (City Council needs to wake up instead of just approving a project, they need to approve projects with character!!!!)
    No design should be approved that looks like a suburb structure.
    This AC Marriott design fits in nicely anywhere in downtown (whether 10 stories of 40 stories).

  29. I’ve long hoped that Kane would venture into Downtown. I think the Stanhope project will be an attractive addition to Hillsborough Street, and shows that Kane isn’t committed to repeating the look of North Hills. That said, North Hills has been a success by many standards and has allowed Kane to step up his game with North Hills East, Stanhope, and now the in the Warehouse District.

  30. @Jim,
    Yes. Devon 425 is concrete and steel. That’s unusual today as most are wood frame on top of concrete garages.
    Condos that are also concrete and/or steel are: The Paramount, 510 Glenwood, 222 Glenwood, Dawson, West, Quorum and Bloomsbury Estates. As for apartments, most of the new ones are NOT concrete and steel. Hue is an exception to this rule because it was started as condos and converted in the downturn. These are just off the top of my head.

  31. @Jim, the Skyhouse apartments are concrete and glass, but relatively pricey. Obviously there’s a premium for the quality, plus downtown and a tall building.

    CX, I agree. I’ve also long hoped he would do stuff downtown instead of North Hills. It’s still an asset to us all, but of course it would’ve been better downtown. But it’s there now and not going to stop growing, so it’s great that he is also moving into downtown spaces like the Warehouse District and Hillsborough St.

  32. So much complaining on this site has almost made it unreadable. We’re in the midst of another boom in downtown construction and it seems Dix Park is on the right track! Come on! Exciting times!

  33. I hope that every project will happen that we are talking about. If all of this happens, the downtown density is going to be fantastic, a lot like Richmond, but I think even better. The list goes on & on. I hope that we see cranes set up in our downtown for a long, long,time! Like I told the city council last week, I am so excited about Raleigh’s future downtown projects! Dwight Nipper

  34. I already foresee it; in just a few years, the majority of the complaints on this website are going to be about the constant construction sites downtown causing inconvenient road detours because there will be several towers being built simultaneously; and this is a pleasant prospect to me though.

  35. Dwight: agree and it WILL BE (by far) better than Richmond.
    I lived their for 8 months, not impressed at all with that area (a few good restaurants, other than VCU – nothing there, old industry/old money, dirty, and the smell from tobacco company is awful in the evenings).
    Other than Glen Allen area, 8 months was much to long to live there, no VIBE what-so-ever in downtown, almost feels like a dying city)

    People need to keep in mind with Raleigh, we are JUST starting to create a foundation for things to come. Just need to make sure we build tall/very vertical (with Vision and Character)!!!

  36. @Jim, All buildings over five stories (six stories with concrete podium) must be built using concrete and steel per building codes.

    Wood construction has come a long way, but concrete and steel will far outlast wood if properly sealed from elements.

  37. @Jim, I should also point out that steel frame construction is priced similar to wood these days and lasts far longer, but the majority of residential construction crews aren’t skilled in using steel and so labor becomes an issue. Wood frame construction is also marginally more efficient in regards to insulation performance.

  38. Wow, 20 and 12 stories for these PRIME downtown lots?! That’s it?! And wonder why Raleigh will never be more than a big town with a low rate skyline for a city of almost half a million people!!

  39. My priorities for DT:
    1. Vibrancy
    2. Street level activity
    3. Verticality
    While I would like to have all three, I am unwilling to have verticality without the other two. I have been to many cities with skylines that look terrific from afar but are dreadful places to be up close.

  40. John: I can agree with you… from my traveling… some cities look amazing from a distance… then when you are downtown you get a feeling of isolation. In thinking about the warehouse district… I am most inspired with the architecture marriage that is present in Goteborg, Sweden! They seem to have a good handle on incorporating the old structures into the modern structures. They tend to pay great attention on the livability factor in planning! An example would be the train station they have… open space out front, hotel incorporated at the train station, and street level shops nearby (Goteborg, sweden)! This city is smaller… as in walkable… but you know you are in a city.

  41. Folks, we’re looking at a possibility of six 20 story buildings breaking ground within a year or so, plus two hotels – John Kane’s two buildings, two on Hillsborough, Edison and Charter North. That’s incredible and will do wonders to the skyline. And you know Ted Reynolds has something planned for the Greyhound lot.

  42. Exactly right William. Actually 3 hotels,if the one by the L building happens. I predict in the next year a movie theater and a grocery store. With all the new retail space coming online. Along with all the new DT residents on the way. It’s basically inevitable.

    6 possibly 7 20 something towers. N&O site maybe 8. I’m not sure what anyone has to complain about at this point. As a Raleigh native that remembers what it used to look like. Maybe my perspective is a little different. I remember when there was no Glenwood south, when there was no Warehouse District. As we know it now. Walk thru there at night your own risk! No Canes or PNC arena. When Cameron Village was my grandmothers hang out. Almost forgot Hillsbrough streets dive bars. Ok that was a good thing. By the way I’m only 41 for the record.

    Things a looking good IMHO. Almost forgot about Raleigh Union Station and the Dix park. No 30-40 story towers RIGHT NOW,but other than that 2015 is looking good.

  43. 20 story commercial towers are going to much more significant than 20 story residential and Hotel towers. You’re likely to get up 60 to 100 ft more in height out of a commercial building mostly due to the plenums that are designed to accommodate building systems and services while maintaining a uniform ceiling height throughout the floors. In residential and hotel construction, the ductwork, plumbing and electrical is typically housed in areas that are dropped down from the concrete slab while create varying ceiling heights.

  44. re: William “And you know Ted Reynolds has something planned for the Greyhound lot.”

    We also have the strong possibility of a major development happening relatively soon (within a few years) at the current N&O site should a sale go through as anticipated.

  45. William & Other Supporters, I’m totally with you! I am so excited about all these projects in our downtown. I am from Raleigh & lived here 66 years except 2 years in service & 2 years in college. I remember when Raleigh’s nickname was “The Sleepy Capital Of The South”! Raleigh is busting @ the seams & I am so glad! I was in a sports event restroom not long ago & the gentleman next to me started a conversation. He said that he was from Columbia,S.C. visiting family & that he thought that Raleigh was small but he said Raleigh is a big city. He said the traffic was terrible & that he couldn’t believe 440 & Capital Blvd. traffic. I said that the metro was over a million & he said I thought Raleigh was a town, but now I know. More people are now realizing this about Raleigh. Dwight Nipper

  46. I love it. In a couple of years the Raleigh Skyline is going to look drastically different. Yes these little 20 story projects seem miniscule, but I believe in the near future our Skyline is going to keep growing vertically with taller projects on the way. Hang in there guys Raleigh is “moving up”!!!!

  47. HQ Raleigh: GREAT job with the inside of the facility – wonderful atmosphere, great energy (outside is another story: needs new sidewalks, curbs, landscaping and the building needs a new fresh Tech. look). Understand they have a long waiting list and can possibly fill another building immediately (that is great for early start-ups and they need to expand HQ Raleigh).
    Here is what they NEED ASAP for growing start-ups: Once a startup out-grows HQ Raleigh, Raleigh needs a HQ Raleigh TOWER (signature 35 – 45 stories with shops, amenities, hotel, meeting space, coffee shop, deli, etc.) in the warehouse district. The start-up company can walk across the street from HQ Raleigh into a new office with more square footage for continued head count growth.
    Why take the chance of having the young company move to RTP or outside of downtown Raleigh?!!!
    HQ Raleigh Tower office space at a square footage discount for companies coming out of HQ Raleigh incubator is ideal for keeping start-ups and growing companies in OUR downtown.

  48. @William & @stew: I’ve been DYING to know what Reynolds has planned for the old Greyhound lot. Being that it’s right across from his Quorum Center, he’s GOTTA be planning something big there. In the meantime, all these recent proposals will keep me excited. In even just 5 years, what could Raleigh look like? One thing’s for sure: that “money shot” from Western Blvd will definitely not be THE photo of our skyline anymore. I think in a few years, we’ll have to use a photo from the Captrust Building in North Hills to fully appreciate the entire skyline. Or possibly the view from Chavis Park? I also really like the scope of view from DH Hill library at NC State: – What do you guys think? What should be the new “money shot” come 2020??

  49. No doubt the DH Hill view will benefit the most with added buildings on Hillsborough, Greyhound, N&O and Warehouse lots. I’m really surprised someone hasn’t jumped on the PD lot across from Nash Square. If the city is not going to do anything, it would be a prime place for a nice, tall mixed-use building.

  50. Anyone have insight to WHY the City is taking SO LONG to sell or develop the (2) empty lots in front of the Raleigh Memorial Aud?
    Put them up for sale and get out of the way (minimum requirement: nothing should be built on these lots that is less than 35 stories)

  51. Went by the Hillsborough St lot yesterday. I have passed it before but never really looked around. It’s right between the Holliday Inn and the brough. I think that’s the name of the building. These CAC clowns are crazy. That lot it begging for a 20+ story building. I may be wrong but in the climate DT(everything getting built that’s proposed) I seriously doubt,that the City will let any group cause this project to get scaled back. At least I hope so.

    Jake you may be right. Only time will tell. But I think the “Money Shot” will always be king. When Charter North built,and if whatever will replace the N&O is 20-25 stories. The MS will only get better. Especially when taken in a wide shot that includes NCSECU. I do like the wide shot you linked though. It will only get better.

    I can’t wait to see what it looks DT in just 5 years. It should be exciting. I think and hope Leo will be very busy over the next 5 years.

  52. Dwight, the next time somebody from Columbia talks to you about Raleigh you can tell them that Wake County alone has a million+ people. Raleigh’s rather small 3 county MSA is well over 1.2 million and the Triangle’s CSA is now over 2 million.
    To put this in perspective, Wake County has many more people than the largest MSA in South Carolina.

  53. @William: Here’s a link to another pic by Matt Robinson that I think could potentially become the new Money Shot in years to come, this one from the Captrust Building- – hell, it could be the money shot already! It really makes Raleigh look like it has some density! @Adrian – come on man! The Western Blvd view will not show the true scope of our city after this year, even!

  54. @ Jake: App. 6 months ago Mr. Reynolds was very interested in building a hotel, but I have not heard anything since then. Dwight Nipper

  55. Jake, wow, I hadn’t seen that shot of DT from North Hills, that’s not bad for ol Raleigh! It’s getting there.

    Add all the proposed buildings to Quorem and Holiday Inn (which are not pictured) and that shot will really be impressive, and twice as wide! Now if we could just get a pair of monsters built at the N&O and PD lots!

  56. @ the parking deck on the 440 side of Raleigh-Duke Hospital top floor is a very pretty view both day & night of Raleigh. Dwight Nipper

  57. @William: yes! I don’t know… I’m still pretty sold on the DH Hill library view. Either one is going to show off the growing skyline much better than the current money shot.

    @Dwight: Matt Robinson has a few pics from that angle on his Twitter, as well! Check him out, he really makes our City of Oaks look great.

  58. The problem with the alternate money shots proposed is that they aren’t places that many (mainly visitors) find serendipitously.

  59. Jake: I have said this before and will continue to say it, J Davis is not an architecture firm, they are a laughable cookie cutter firm. EVERYTHING they do is from one simple ugly foundation, all their work looks the same (that is not an architect, that is a copy cat firm with no vision, my kids have better designs than this low IQ group).

    I DO NOT understand why these locals continue to use them, they are the worst and are ruining OUR downtown (bottom line, they s _ _ k)

    This group is embarrassing to our downtown development.

  60. The Dawson-McDowell shot is the money shot because it can be readily seen and provides a dramatic vantage point. As Dix Park becomes a reality, I think we’ll see a lot more use of that view of Downtown. I do enjoy the view from DH Hill.

    I don’t think 616 Oberlin Road needs retail. Cameron Village provides a great deal of retail with a market area much wider than the surrounding neighborhood. As we’ve seen with the buildings at Clark and Oberlin, there is room for growth but its the residential that’s more important. As the mass of residents increases in CV, there will be a greater need for retail in other places, particularly Downtown. That said, live work units or artists lofts would improve the relationship with the street.

  61. Looks like Durham is about to get started on a 26 story building and North Hills now has plans for a new 28 story project as I’m sure most of you know. This make me anxious to see some of our own tower projects take off considering all the low rise buildings DT Raleigh is getting.

  62. Bob, the North Hills tower 3 is purely speculative at this point and will get zero consideration until a major corporation decides to relocate there. They still have to find tenants for their tower 2 under construction!

    I bet either a tower at 301 Hillsborough or Charter Square North tower starts before tower 3 at NH. Maybe even both.

  63. Like that NH Tower 3 rendering and site plan.

    I wish Kane would bring back the plans for two midrise buildings directly adjacent to the sidewalk on the west side of Six Forks Road.

  64. Anyone have experience living at the Dawson or Palladium Plaza and willing to provide feedback?? And thanks to everyone for there willingness to share.

  65. I read some good news in today’s N&O. The owner of the lot beside 301 Hillsborough Street said that he has had 4 to 5 developers ask him to sell his lot to them for a future project. He said that some of the requests also were interested in the 301 site. Dwight Nipper

  66. Why all of a sudden have they decided to put a 20 story cap in that area? Didn’t the Reynolds tower start off at 32 storiesj or was it taller?

  67. Who applied for the 20-story limit? According to the pdf for zoning case Z-38-14, Ruffin Hall (City Manager) appears as the owner – technically, the City of Raleigh. There is no developer yet to speak of, so this request is probably coming from some people in the city government. They seem to be the ones to want a limit, not the developer. The document has Mr Hall’s email, so feel free to contact him for more information.

  68. So one or two people will be determining the future height of the Raleigh skyline. And a taller building in a downtown bothers them why?

  69. Fellas, no need to get bent out of shape. If a developer were to want a taller building, they could simply submit for a rezoning. These things are market driven. And the fact is, with 3 other 20+ buildings in the pipeline for downtown, there is likely not much demand for something taller.

    I’m also of the mindset that I would prefer a 20 story building at 301 Hillsborough AND at the old Greyhound site, rather than a 40 story building at one, and the other remaining undeveloped.

  70. Just had a thought about this 301 Hillsborough site… it does seem strange that the City is submitting for the rezoning rather than letting a developer do it. Could the city be rezoning this for their revised Lightner Center (around 15 floors)? And then they could sell the corner of Hargett & McDowell to a private developer. On the park and closer to the CBD – it would get a higher sale price and could allow for taller building.

  71. Sorry mike, but I will not take two 20-story buildings over a 40-story building – if they both offer a similar architectural elegance and good street-level experience. I’d rather see one site undeveloped for a few more years, provided the owner doesn’t go bankrupt over this.

    Now, if the city of Raleigh is responsible for this height limit and I am not reading this the wrong way, why putting a height limit? Applying again for rezoning and an increase of height by the developer, at a later time, is nothing less than pure bureaucracy. As a growing city, we need to make the process speedier. They should leave the height limit alone and let the market or the developer decide. Excellent observation about the return of Clarence Lightner proposal, but then again we don’t need height restrictions for this.

    Anyway, I only posted an assumption on my part, since we don’t have any developers officially selected just yet, and because I didn’t see an applicant’s name on the zoning request. Maybe I missed something, but I am sure someone here will correct me if I am wrong.

  72. I know that Mr. Kane mentioned that he wanted to design a building (old Dillon warehouse building) that would honor the buildings roots and try to preserve some of its architecture. I ran across this building design (in the below link) that seems to follow that idea. What do you all think of this building… I know it needs to be taller… but the general feel of the building.

  73. Randell, I like the building. If you google “BidClerk Projects Near Raleigh NC”, click on Office, click on revised 2-13-15, it shows Mr. Kane’s project to start on app. July 2015. Dwight Nipper

  74. Randall, Sorry,I gave you the wrong date. The date is 2-10-15 under office for a est. start date for July 20th 2015. Dwight

  75. For whatever it’s worth, it was confirmed to me by the City Manager that the city initiated the rezoning case, and therefore the height reduction. You can draw your own conclusions as to which direction the city leadership wants to take Raleigh…

  76. @ Ernest
    You didn’t happen to ask the city manager why the city initiated the rezoning did you? I just can’t figure out why the city is trying to rezone downward the max height limit? Why not say 20 story without approval and then over 20 with approval? Do not put an automatic limit in the downtown area. Even the perception of government overreach is never good. IMHO!

  77. @Robert: This is part of the reply that may answer your question: “Yes, the City has initiated this zoning application. We are following the guidelines established by our comprehensive plan and recent work completed by the downtown master plan. There are competing opinions about building height downtown – we are following the most recent planning work completed to date.”

    I don’t know where in the Earth it says that 20 stories should be the maximum, but unless they hear about it, city leaders will proceed with this lunacy, unopposed. I did my part, but now that I know who is behind this mess I will contact the city council and speak a little differently from before. In my opinion, this is a shame and such idiotic restrictions should be prevented from happening, early enough, but that is me speaking…

  78. Its very simple. Its from the new UDO that has had dozens of public meetings to guide the new zoning recommendations.

    Tallest buildings are recommended in the city center and the height should step down as you move toward the edges of downtown and the neighborhoods. The 301 Hillsborough site definitely falls in that transition zone.

    And again, the taller the building here, the more demand it takes away from other projects, and the longer other lots remain vacant. Wouldn’t you want a 40 story at the Enterprise car lot instead?!

  79. Yes, but the Enterprise lot, as well as the N&O lot, would be capped at 20 stories/250 feet according to the rezoning proposal. Of course, should a developer want to build something taller, they would just submit for rezoning, but still… It would make more sense if anything east of McDowell is consistent with the 40-story/500 feet limit that is proposed for Fayetteville St.
    Oh, well… maybe Kane will buy all of these prime lots and put monsters on them. :)

  80. Simon, you’re right. It looks like the 40 story limit is basically only along Fayetteville St.

    Although, there is always rezoning if the developer is interested.

    20 floors still seems appropriate for 301 Hillsborough though.

  81. Yep, I don’t really have an issue with a 20-story building going up at 301 Hillsborough – that’s better than nothing. I just hope we get developers with deep pockets for those really prime lots.

  82. I think that the 40 story cap is generally okay! Though I would much rather see the city center designated as 40 to 80 story! I do think they are making a mistake now by limiting the heights (forty story) to just Fayetteville street! The city center should cover at least 8 blocks both directions and then the shorter buildings around that!

  83. Has anyone heard when they’re going to break ground for the Residence Inn? I’m thinking it’s been close to three years since the city chose a developer.

  84. I would like to see the City acquire the small set of building that club bodi occupies and then build a new multi-story Contemporary Arts Museum! That would allow for the property it (cam) currently sits on to be developed. That piece of property could be greatly beneficial to the progress in the warehouse district. Not to mention that the new CAM building could be architecturally significant! It could set a positive tone for anyone coming off the train at the new Union Station!

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