Pic of the Week

Boylan Flats construction site, November 2017

The construction site at Boylan Flats is really moving now. The 48-unit apartment building on the 600 block of North Boylan will most likely finish sometime next year.

I wonder if those south facing units may one-day be just a few feet away from a future development on the corner of Boylan and Johnson. That may just be a risk when building a narrow development mid-block with interior windows I guess.

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  1. Good morning Leo,

    With five levels, this looks larger than 48 units? Imagine 100 or 200 units… :-)

    Also Leo, I wish that I were currently able to financially able to support this awesome site that you have created. Congratulations ???? on 10 wonderfully insightful years! Here’s to many, many years to come and for me to be able to financially assist soon! By the way is PayPal the only way for me to become a sustainer?

    My thanks for all that you do for Raleigh!

  2. take out that second “able to”… sorry, not totally awake yet…Lol

    Also, doesn’t Pay Pal get a share of your money?

  3. Hey Robert. Thanks a lot for even mentioning it. I appreciate even that. ?
    Anyone can email me of they want to do something outside of paypal. I do have Venmo as well.

    Yes, PayPal takes a small cut but it’s a legit and safe service (I think so anyway) so that’s ok with me.

  4. The Boylan Flats project is the most secretive project happening downtown. I find almost no useful information about it and am beginning to wonder what’s really going on with it. I was told that it’s not really an apartment building, rather a short term rental “suites” hotel. If that’s the case, I expect it to be a dump in a few years since they are usually built with low grade materials.
    If it is in fact a glorified suites hotel, it answers questions that we’ve had in the past about this project, namely: 1) How come there isn’t enough parking? and 2) How in the heck were they able to squeeze that many apartments into such a tiny footprint?
    This lot is zoned as NX and I wonder if this sort of occupancy is even allowed? I haven’t been able to find that answer.

  5. Raleigh (and charlotte usa) ‘eliminated’ from MLS 2020 list. Don’t think this is a surprise at this point. Malik seemed to always be alluding to his ‘goal’ of being in the 1st cut but always hedging that they would be planning for Round 2 which will be announced next year. Without a definitive agreement with the State on the stadium site, there’s no way MLS was going to select Raleigh in this round. Nashville has made a much stronger and unified push of late and as a result they are still in the ‘final 4’. Sacramento, Cincinnati, and Detroit round out the ‘final 4’ for this round. Sacramento and Cincinnati were always high on the list from the beginning with much more solidified stadium plans…

  6. Geekwire HQ2 – In an effort to capitalize on the buzz surrounding Amazon HQ2, I surmise, Geekwire is promoting their own HQ2 contest and Raleigh is one of four finalists.

    Vote for Raleigh here: https://www.geekwire.com/2017/geekwire-hq2-search-narrows-4-finalists-heres-chance-vote-second-city/

    What is GeekWire HQ2?

    GeekWire HQ2 is a second temporary corporate headquarters where GeekWire will embed reporters in a carefully selected community to assess its chances of becoming the continent’s next great tech city. GeekWire will produce written stories, photos, videos, social media content, and more that will expose readers to the innovative companies, entrepreneurs, organizations, and other leaders contributing to the region’s growth.

  7. I’m glad GeekWire did their homework and decided upon a very current picture of our downtown skyline.

    Either way I voted, thanks for the link!

  8. Honestly kind of bummed about the MLS announcement. With Nashville probably selected I feel like Raleigh will never get it. I also feel like Nashville is becoming our true rival, not Charlotte or Austin. Malik kept acting like he had some secret knowledge but here we are.

  9. This is not really a surprise. Raleigh must have the stadium site ‘locked down’ before MLS would select us..which we don’t…yet. Nashville is further along as are the other cities, who have been bidding a good bit longer than Raleigh. If Malik can get a deal done with the State, Raleigh’s chances will skyrocket for the next round. North Carolina is the 9th largest state in the nation. Raleigh’s TV market is larger than charlotte’s (23 or 24, I believe). One of the fastest growing markets in the nation, highly educated, lots of big universities..meaning lots of millennials who are a key target for soccer, not to mention NCFC Youth is the largest youth soccer league in America by nearly 10,000 kids. (Sacramento is next). Assume those 15,000 kids have an average family size of just 3 and only 1/2 buy season tickets and there’s your 22-24,000 season ticket holders!!

  10. Nashville has super rich owners and investors. Nashville also got to show they were a “soccer city” when they hosted the USMNT with good attendance. But that last point is kinda a silly distinguishing factor because I would assume that almost every major city in the country would draw well for the USMNT. But Raleigh never gets this opportunity because we don’t have any venues to host these games. 3rd point on Nashville, they are getting a ton of public money for their stadium project.

  11. The stadium uncertainty wasn’t the deciding factor leaving us off the list.

    At least when looking at Detroit’s bid, their stadium plans were so questionable they shifted considerations to using the Lions stadium

  12. Not surprised about soccer. I’m glad we aren’t getting the MLS pick this time around, and doubt we’ll get the pick next year. I hope we never do. Also we are not getting Amazon.

    I’m not being negative, I’m being realistic. And also think neither would be good for Raleigh. I don’t want our city to be “small” forever, that’s not what this is – I love the growth and want to see it continue at a SUSTAINABLE level. I also definitely want more skyscrapers over time, of course! But having one or both (MLS / Amazon) in Raleigh would forever change the city for the worst. Higher rents at a much faster rate, worse traffic, and still no decent public transport. It’s expensive enough to live here already, and for what? Also that GeekWire thing is a joke. The photo they used is over a decade old and their votes would mean nothing to Amazon.

  13. Not a bit surprised by the MLS announcement, not one bit. I think Malik’s highly publicized announcement to seek approval for stadium project on state-owned land was a proverbial swing for the fences … a noteworthy attempt to gen up public support to a fever’s pitch in the hopes of pressuring ambivalent (at best) city/county/state officials.

    After the big announcement and fanfare with deputy commissioner Abbott in tow what came next? Nada! Well, in all fairness city officials did pledge to “study” the proposal but wouldn’t you think city leaders would have been included from the get-go? Apparently not. Best I can recollect none were in attendance that day.

    I don’t harbor any ill-will towards Nashville but agree our chances will slip from slim to virtually nil if they are awarded a franchise. Now, if by some shocker we are awarded Amazon HQ2 then all bets are off.

    @Jake – You might be misunderstanding the Geekwire thing. Geekwire will embed writers locally in order to investigate (and write about) the winning city’s readiness as a future tech center. Sounds like an opportunity to me irrespective of how Amazon HQ2 turns out. I hope Raleigh is selected.

  14. I have zero interest in Raleigh getting an MLS franchise, personally. But to state the obvious: it’s the same old story – no reason this MLS bid would be any different. The MLS, like all professional sports leagues, won’t touch this market, since it has three major and wildly popular ACC universities all gathered together in the same market. These universities provide awesome spectator opportunities across the entire spectrum of sports. IMO, these college sports are a more exciting product than the professional leagues could ever hope to offer, and at a better price point. SO – the problem with our market is that there IS NO PROBLEM with our market! I love it just as it is!

    BTW…for those of you who are actually interested in this MLS process: I’ll share a strange anecdote, noting that attendance appears to have been an important criterion in the selection process. I received a message photo a few months ago from an old friend in Cincinnati (one of the MLS final four). That’s my home town, and I immediately recognized the photo as a nearly EMPTY Nippert Stadium at the University of Cincinnati. There couldn’t have been 1,000 people there! I was very surprised to read the accompanying message. My friend explained I was looking at the all-time record crowd for a soccer game in Cincinnati, which he said was announced at 30,000. Hmmm. I can only speculate that some local patron purchased thousands of tickets that were not used by actual human beings. Maybe Malik would be interested in that little gambit for next time.

  15. @renpark john

    Ever heard of the Carolina Hurricanes?

    We get that some of you don’t care for soccer. I could care less about the NBA. if the league folded tomorrow, I would not lose an ounce of sleep. This isn’t about whether you like soccer or not. More people around the world do like soccer than any other sport…PERIOD. The payrolls for Premier Clubs dwarf the NFL in the US. And the fact is its the fastest growing sport in America now..by far. What Raleigh getting an MLS franchise IS about is economic development and Raleigh winning a franchise would be a HUUUGE economic shot in the arm for downtown. Just watch the number of hotels that will get built if we are awarded a team for starters.

    So, while you may not care for soccer, I’m assuming you are on this site because you DO care about Downtown Raleigh. If not, go find a place on facebook to complain about the world…

  16. The lot in front (south) of Boylan Flats is owned by the Raleigh Housing Authority, so my guess is it would sit unused for awhile as they have no use for it.

    The rumor that the apartment building will be used for short term rentals is false, as this type of use would require a special permit which has not been requested.

  17. Uncle Jesse,
    What are you basing that assumption (about economic development) on? Is that just your hunch or do you have any sort of third-party economic analysis? As far as I know, there hasn’t been a single new franchise that has met or exceeded the eco devo goals they used to get their stadiums built (I know this would be privately-funded and obviously they don’t have the same incentive to overestimate as a publicly-funded stadium).

    For some context, the average MLS team draws 375,000 people for their 17 home games. By comparison, a AAA baseball team (like the Bulls) draws around 450,000 over 70 games. I don’t see why there would be a boom of hotels for something that plays 17 times a year and draws less than a bush league baseball team. And that’s assuming we have an average team, the majority of the league actually draws less than that. So, I’m just curious if your assumption is based on actual math or if it’s just a feeling you have?

  18. Malik, NCFC, and anyone closely following this bid knows that we never thought we were going to make the cut for his year. There was no way we could straighten out a stadium deal in one year. The plan has always been for next year’s announcement. So today’s news is neither surprising nor disappointing. NCFC’s bid is on track for next year, The challenge is securing the stadium site. Malik has said that he and Kane are making significant progress in that regard behind the scenes. Have faith. #919toMLS

  19. Yeah, I hope they get it done. That stadium rendering was gorgeous, and it would radically improve the appearance of that corner. I don’t really care about sports, but it would be one more thing for people to do/one more place to get drunk outside.

  20. Stadium/NCFC/NSL/new team question?
    Now that the four finalist (from the twelve vieing) for the first two spots have been chosen, do the two failed finalist get put back in the running for the second round next year?

  21. @John532: Which contractor? Was it a sub, a sub-sub, etc. Or was it the lead contractor? That said, RaleighDLA is right that there would be special permits involved, and we could find that info out easily.

    My guess, your contractor doesn’t know or is wrong, or heard a rumor himself.

  22. wralsportsfan has a good read (a post-mortem if you will) on our failed MLS bid.

    “It’s the stadium, stupid: NCFC Raleigh readies for next round of MLS expansion”

    The title lays blame squarely on our lack of an approved stadium plan but, as has previously been mentioned on this forum, our attendance numbers were down this year (10% according to the article). I’m sure this hurt our chances as well. Perhaps the hot weather had something to do with the low turnout.

    @Robert – The two groups not selected in the first round are eligible to compete in the second round.

  23. @Robert B, not a sub of a sub of a sub.
    The conversation was casual and I am not looking to throw anyone under the bus but it was someone whom I would think would know the owner’s true intentions for this building. I guess that we will just have to wait and see.
    That said, why else would this project have almost NO information on it published? Why would I receive no reply when I specifically inquired about it online? If it were truly a traditional apartment, why is there no preview marketing material online for it? This whole thing is highly suspicious to me. There’s nothing more that I’d like than to be proven wrong about this but that has not yet happened. The project remains an enigma on so many levels. Does anyone even have a good rendering or elevation of it? If so, I haven’t seen one.

  24. @Robet B, Because this deal is not being ‘financed’ most likely meaning private dollars are funding, which means they don’t have to worry about getting it rented immediately and they can wait and see what the market rents look like next summer when the building is ready for occupancy.

  25. @Uncle Jesse

    “Raleigh getting an MLS franchise IS about economic development and Raleigh winning a franchise would be a HUUUGE economic shot in the arm for downtown. Just watch the number of hotels that will get built if we are awarded a team for starters.

    So, while you may not care for soccer, I’m assuming you are on this site because you DO care about Downtown Raleigh. If not, go find a place on facebook to complain about the world…”

    @uncle Jessie: you are correct in assuming that I DO care about downtown Raleigh, which is why I’ve been on this awesome site from the beginning. And I’m fine with your whiny “go find a place on Facebook to complain about the world”. You obviously have strong feelings about this MLS thing, and I get that.

    But to the point: if I DID believe that an MLS franchise would cause an economic “shot in the arm”, a wave of new hotels, or even an improvement in the street level experience in downtown Raleigh, I would absolutely share your enthusiasm. I just don’t see it. I have to concur with @Steve on this one: show me some cost/benefit math, or let’s just get back to talking about Boylan Flats.

    Oh, and @uncle Jessie: yes, I have heard of the Hartford Whalers aka Carolina Hurricanes. Been reading the papers lately? Wonder what their next name will be? You see, that’s just one more reality to consider about corporate sports franchises. They’re not like a state university founded in 1789 (UNC) or 1837 (Duke) or 1887 (NC State), and provide only a tiny fraction of the community benefit, and for a much shorter timeframe.

    But we ARE talking apples and oranges here. The Raleigh market COULD have both college AND professional sports teams. I’m open-minded, and I look forward to some cold hard math.

  26. @renpark john,

    I would encourage you to travel a bit. Go visit any major city around the nation that has recently built a stadium or arena in their downtown area and see what sort of impact its had. Hell, you can simply drive to most any town in NC now that has a major or minor league franchise and see where they have put the stadium. Even Fayetteville is getting in on this. Do you think they are doing it because it has minimal economic impact to the downtown core?

    Travel to virtually any city in America and see what a stadium has done for the core of the city.

  27. Uncle Jesse , High Point will have their ground breaking tomorrow for their stadium ! They will have a Atlantic League baseball team & also have soccer , lacrosse , football , concerts at this stadium ! Developers have already committed to a hotel , retail , restaurants , apartments !

  28. Just saw the n&o site was sold, main story on their website actually. They mentioned the previous developer wanted a 40 story building there. No specifics about the current developer’s height plans. But they did say construction starting second quarter of next year! Fingers crossed….

  29. To think a stadium or ball park downtown doesn’t have an affect on economic growth is simply naive. There’s evidence of that in literally every city that has one. High Point is a good example and that’s a small city. Lots of new development happening in Greensboro too mostly around the ballpark. Anything that brings a large amount of people into downtown will spur growth and development. It’s simple as that.

  30. @Uncle Jesse: “@renpark john, I would encourage you to travel a bit. Go visit any major city around the nation that has recently built a stadium or arena in their downtown area and see what sort of impact its had.”

    Uncle Jesse, :-) please don’t encourage my to travel! I just retired from 25 years as a “road warrior” visiting ALL of the 100 largest American cities (in 46 of the 50 states) and may European cities as well. If I ever leave my beloved Raleigh again, it will be to see friends and relatives in Ohio, Florida, and California – and then only after I first BEG THEM to COME HERE and VISIT ME in Raleigh!

    On stadiums and arenas: we’ve both been on this forum for a long time, and this subject has come up multiple times. Most posters follow into one of 2 camps: those who welcome a new sports amenity to their city and see economic benefits to be had, and those (myself included) who have little interest in a new sports amenity, and have noticed that often these new stadiums, because of their sheer size and surrounding parking decks and lots, create a sizable “dead zone”, devoid of street life. This affect is especially noticeable because (depending on the sport) the large stadium and support area sits idle most of the time. THAT is what I noticed in my own extensive travels. But hey – just one opinion, not the only one.

    There is another issue, too. One that hopefully wouldn’t affect Raleigh, if Malik and Kane make good on their assurances that a downtown Raleigh stadium would be privately financed. In my hometown of Cincinnati, I watched the MLB “Reds” in Crosley Field as a child, as the “Big Red Machine” of the 1980s in Riverfront Stadium, and as a visitor (I’ve lived in Raleigh for over 25 years) in their newest “Great American Ballpark”. All of those stadiums were publicly financed, and my old friends complain bitterly about the tax dollars they coughed up to support the franchise. Ignore this issue at your own peril. As one example: North Hills. I’ll stay out of the debate on who should pay to widen Six Forks Road and upgrade ancillary roads around the North Hills development, but I haven’t read anything about Kane privately financing those costs. Building a new stadium is a complex undertaking, and sometimes the lines between public and private financing can become blurred.

    Apologies for an uncharacteristically long post. I’ll retreat to the sidelines and enjoy the forum dialog.

    I’ll be the one who doesn’t care a bit about the downtown skyline and building height limits. I care about the quality of life at the STREET LEVEL, and I understand what creates that quality. Trees, wide sidewalks, bicycle lanes, and no “missing teeth” (vacant lots). Setbacks are a good thing. Plazas, arcades, colonnades, passage ways, parklets, balconies, porches, architectural complexity and ornament, a mix of old and new. Urban designers call it “prospect and refuge” – the idea that homo sapiens evolved on the forest EDGES, the boundary zone between jungle and grasslands, and so we naturally treasure the intricacies of that boundary zone. All of these things are being improved upon in downtown Raleigh at a steady pace. And we’re all here right now to experience the result: a good downtown is becoming a great downtown.

  31. @jeff great news. A new tallest would be fantastic but I’m more excited about linking Nash square / whiskey kitchen block with Fayetteville street via streetscape retail there on Martin street. That is a major dead zone with county justice complex on south side and current n&o ops on North, and some thoughtful street level engagement could really improve the walk-ability of that area.

  32. @Trent Y,
    You might think it’s naïve, but it’s actually widely accepted among economists that stadiums don’t actually spur economic growth. And again, this isn’t my opinion, but that of professionals who actually study it. So, unless you can point to an actual economic analysis that corroborates that opinion, let’s dispense with the notion that stadiums create economic growth.


  33. I tend to agree with this kind of thinking. The PNC arena didn’t create the growth in West Raleigh that people thought. It certainly adds more amenities to a city, they can host big events but when you weigh the costs, it’s nothing to get excited about.

    Personally, I want to see some sports in downtown when we’re at a point when we can handle it, as a “cherry on top”, not at all based on the thinking that it will be a driver of more economic growth.

  34. Don’t get me wrong, I 100% want this MLS stadium to go through. It would be another amenity and it would be a huge improvement over the current situation. I agree with everyone that the new stadiums are improvements over what previously existed, but I just don’t like the argument that they create economic growth because all the evidence (at least that I can find) says they don’t.

  35. The NCFC stadium proposal might be an exception to the rule, because it would replace state government buildings that didn’t create much economic growth for the city. I could see the stadium spurring more growth on the Peace St corridor in a way that would never happen without it.

  36. So the N&O building developers want a mixed use project. Hopefully they can completely build out the space. 40 stories with Retail, Class A office, a Hotel, and Apartments and/or Condos.

  37. @Justin,
    In many (if not most) instances, stadiums are actually replacing something that currently generates NO economic activity, like abandoned lots and buildings. So, the fact that it’s currently government buildings isn’t really relevant.

    I think your last sentence illustrates some of the confusion. It’s possible that investment happens around stadiums because the stadiums create a focal point, we see this happen all the time. However, this isn’t NEW investment that wouldn’t otherwise happen. This is simply investment that would have happened but maybe in a different location of the city. So, stadiums may shape or direct investment, but they don’t generate new investment that wouldn’t already be happening in that market. So, to take your example, if we see more investment on Peace Street, this investment would be happened regardless, but it might have happened in the Warehouse District, or on New Bern Ave, or somewhere in North Raleigh, but it happened on Peace St to be near the stadium.

    Now, to take Uncle Jesse’s point, it’s possible that hotels decide to locate downtown because of the stadium (or, because of the sum total of amenities downtown), but these are hotels that would already be building in Raleigh. So, we might get a Westin downtown instead of in Crabtree, for example, because Westin wants to be associated with something cool like MLS. So, in that sense a stadium MIGHT help downtown economically, but it comes at the expense of another part of the city (or market).

    Now, I think we can all agree that directing development downtown instead of in the suburbs is something we all want, and in that sense the stadium might be good for downtown, but for the city as a whole, it doesn’t generate additional growth.

  38. @Steve

    The article you posted was specifically talking about football “stadiums” and says word for word “Basketball and hockey arenas are a better deal for cities. Arenas get used more often.” There is a difference between the two.

    PNC arena gets A LOT more events then Carter Finley stadium. Imagine if that was in downtown. There hasnt been growth around those areas in west Raleigh because they were put out there away from everything already. Theres nothing to even build on as far as adding hotels, restuarants, shops, and offices around that arena and stadium. Thats two different situations.

    Plus talking about the MLS arena in particular. That would be a big boost to that area of downtown compared to whats there. Amenities would absolutely be built up around that area and would make it feel more connected to the core of downtown. Whether you like MLS or sports in general, that arena proposal would absolutely be good for downtowns growth.

  39. I think that is the main point. An arena downtown is going to encourage more of the growth to continue downtown instead of sprawling. Which is the way it should be.

  40. Let’s be clear here, the failed deal between Above the Fold deal was going to be 40 stories tall. The new buyer/developer has not mentioned the size of the tower at all, only that it wants the tower/s to be mixed use. So next tallest is still up in the air. Hopefully, Acquisition Group understand the prestige and economical benefits that comes with having the tallest building in Downtown.

  41. Itbinsider reported that Fmw real estate company has purchased the now abandoned automotive shop at 701 Hillsborough st. Anyone heard/seen any plans for what they plan on building?

  42. They do own the BB&T tower so at least they know he value of having at least one of the tallest towers in downtown. And for that money, hopefully they are very aware that something serious needs to go in that lot.

  43. @Trent,
    Your last comment (about the stadiums) is a fair point, and I agree with it.

    Regarding N&O, they paid about $7 million an acre for it. By comparison, the 400H block was sold for about $2.1 million for an acre. I would suspect that at least the Salisbury St side is going to be fairly tall.

  44. 701 Hillsborough st., give the location and size of the lot will probably be under 10 floors. Probably like One Glenwood project going up now. Hillsborough Street will be the Mid-Rise Mile in 10 years.

  45. Guys, what happen to 301H there’s been no official news from the developers since almost a year ago and no news about the project since June. 400H is scheduled to break ground next year. Is 301H dead?

  46. Steve, that’s good news! That area is adjacent to some of the most active parts of the Warehouse District, but are decrepit. I’m glad the area is finally coming together.

    Fran, the last anyone heard there were 2 issues: the head of the company dying, and some crap about how the city wasn’t impressed with their presentation and plans. Neither one should kill the project after all the money spent, but it seems to be slow to say the least. Despite some general opposition on here, I was really looking forward to that one! I hope it moves forward.

  47. That article about Amazon’s second HQ needing space equivalent to 19 PNC plazas is laughable. Do they not realize only 11 floors of that building are office. The whole building has 730k sqft of space. Amazon is looking for 2.5 million. If my math is right, Amazon would only need about 3 buildings the size of PNC plaza.

  48. The Lincoln Theatre block is 9 acres. That could easily hold about 6 sizable towers or 9 PNC towers. The problem is all that empty space and parking is owned by multiple owners and you’ll have to convince Raleigh to move the Pope House Museum somewhere else. Still 9 freaking acres–relatively undeveloped right next to the City Plaza. Plus the City of Raleigh wants to sell the parking lots in front of the Memorial theater. That’s two extra locations for towers.

  49. I can’t read the article, but TBJ has a story that the designer behind Fairweather (who is also part of the CAM), wants to bring more interesting buildings to downtown. I get the impression he’s hoping to build more Modernist structures, which I think would be great.

  50. But but but!!! What about the beauty of red brick buildings? Nothing says modern city like red bricks! God knows Raleigh doesn’t have enough of them. Who needs modernist, interesting architecture? ;-)

  51. This might be way into the future but there’s some really space inefficient towers in Downtown Raleigh that could in the future be demolished for newer towers that make more economical sense. One Progress Plaza (1977) has this huge service dock and smaller parking lot that takes up a third of the square footage. For what? Look at all that empty airspace that could be office space. Also across the street, Capital Bank Plaza and the 5 story Hudson (aka the ABC 11 building aka old Belk Department store). Those two building just look so dated and really don’t have any historic note to them and absolutely in one of the most prime locations being next to the PNC Plaza tower.

  52. Wow 1977! And the old Wachovia building on Fayetteville St was just renovated and I believe that it was completed in 1964? Maybe Duke Energy will wait until they can get their headcount down enough and then they will sale the building to a firm that can renovate and lease it out? Buildings of that size usually don’t get razed unless it is in really in bad disrepair or if it’s owned by First Citizens Bank? Lol ;-) Sorry it’s late and I couldn’t resist!

  53. You don’t have to tear down One Progress to build over that loading dock/parking lot along Davie. A 10 story office building was proposed on that lot back in 2003-ish that would have contained offices and a ‘central branch’ for the Wake County library system on the bottom floor. Though that project never happened, there’s no reason some other project couldn’t happen there.

  54. Just to follow up on the HQ2 post, I thought the plan was for 2.5 million sqft of office space basically immediately, with 8 million being needed over he next 15 years.

  55. When I was in college I read a book about Joe Robbi, the long time owner of the Miami Dolphins. He was actually notorious about doing whatever he could to keep any other franchise from getting into the Miami market because he didn’t want the competition. Up to and including trying to compete against the University of Miami’s sports programs. He didn’t want any other sport in Miami. I make this point because that is how sports franchises look at Markets. Our market offers signifigant competition due to the success of our college programs who take in lots of money including ticket sales and booster donations. I know transplants to Raleigh don’t want to hear this from a homer. I am not against soccer. I think our best chance for downtown sports is if we can get Hockey and State basketball downtown. State has a top 25 national basketball attendance. That means an “anchor” of dependable traffic. Meaning, franchises can move, the University can’t. That’s 20 games a year, the Hurricanes who have already established themselves is another 40 games. I have to agree the city missed the mark when they built PNC, and it also hurt N.C. State’s campus at the same time, because it took the alumni away, who spend dollars when they visit.

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