Future site of Boylan Flats
Site plans for Boylan Flats were submitted (SR-066-16) to the city recently, a new development consisting of 48 apartments at 615 North Boylan Avenue. This is the surface parking lot directly behind the McDonald’s that faces Peace Street and The Paramount across Boylan Avenue. Rather than a 200+ unit, multi-property building that we typically see, the footprint of Boylan Flats is much smaller. (0.233 acres)
Site location. Click for larger
According to the site plan, the new building will be five-stories tall at 72 feet. Parking will be on the ground floor with a gated entrance and lobby facing Boylan. The plan also mentions a 1,025 square foot rooftop open space.
Per the planning process, the sidewalks will be completely redone, 14′ feet wide, and bike racks will also be included with the parking spaces. No renderings are this point and with any site review like this ones, details may change.
We’ll follow this one for sure cause if you’ve been following this blog for awhile, I love anything that removes surface parking.
Site layout (proposed). Click for larger
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I’m challenged to think about how they are going to get 48 units in five floors on that piece of land. I’m intrigued. After counting the parking spaces on the lower level, it certainly doesn’t come anywhere close to one per apartment. This gets me to thinking that either the reported # of apartments is off or that we may be seeing micro-apartments enter the market without parking. My gut tells me that the number of apartments is off but my hope is that we get some micro-apartments. The market could use them.
Hmm….. Found the preliminary site review online. Interestingly, the requirement for 37 off street parking spaces says that it’s provided. The plan only shows 20. Also, there isn’t any indication of the breakdown on number of bedrooms for the units. The 44,250 total square feet of the entire building including the common lobby, corridors, etc would suggest that the units will not be big. If we took 20% of that building area away for lobby, circulation, service closets, etc., that would leave the average size apartment in the 700+ square feet range. If the five floors includes that first floor lobby and parking, then they’ll have 12 units per floor on the other 4 floors. Unfortunately, many units will be facing the back of that McDonald’s on Peace (oh, the gift that keeps on giving….)
I’m trying to remember how many units were in the previously scrapped Boylan Flats project. That design was pretty cool. I hope this new one is as architecturally interesting.
The 37 parking spaces are split between on and off site. Where off site? Doesn’t say.
From the old, old plans I have, there were only going to be 10 condos at 1400sf, except for the 2 units on the 1st floor. It was a fabulous design. I loved it! Wish they would build that instead.
I think this is great for that location. That area is somewhat of a deadzone now and it will bring more life. I believe this will also help out Glenwood South, Peace, The Smokey Hollow Project and everything that is happening with Seaboard.
In the furture, I would love to see Glenwood South more developed on both sides of the street with a lot of restaurants and retail on the first floors. I think the One Glenwood Project will definitely help start that.
I’m a big fan of A) something that is not beige and red and B)isn’t a megablock size building. New stuff the size of Capital Apartments and the Bailey Building is sorely missing from downtown (though Hillsborough St is getting some of that size stuff). More please.
saw plans showing 22 units. it didn’t specify if all rental or retail. not best location as busy street especially across entrance to Paramount.
The area is hardly a dead zone with Paramount, St Mary’s Place, and the two Devon projects within a block or two. That said, there’s still opportunity to do more between Glenwood and St. Mary’s along Peace and Johnson. I’d really like to see some comprehensive walkable retail/services experience along both streets between Boylan and St. Mary’s as catalysts for more housing and in support of all the housing already existing.
With the Smokey Hollow project to include a grocer, I think that there will be even more interest in developing housing that is walkable to it along W Johnson St. in particular. With that road basically flat, carrying groceries on foot or by personal folding cart will not be difficult.
I may have missed this but what is going on at the southeast corner of Harrington and Lane?
That’s the Metropolitan apartments or formerly called the greyhound apartments.
There’s a(n early) rendering over at Raleigh Public Record:
http://raleighpublicrecord.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/2015/07/greyhoundjdavis.jpg
Not sure why the guy with a girl on his back is about to hit his head on the stop sign. ;-)
Oh, and there’s an updated rendering from the article Leo wrote last month :-D
https://www.raleighagenda.com/1536/the-metropolitan-downtown-raleigh/
No ground floor retail, looks almost exactly the same as the Link apts across the st (i.e.: tacky, suburban, cookie-cutter), takes up the entire block. Not looking forward to that one^^^
I don’t mind if there are buildings with no ground floor retail…I think that survives best in little strips and small concentrations. But, man why do so many of the new apartment projects have to look so similar? Back to the row house thread….rowhouses facing Harrington between Jones and Lane would have been lovely. The house moved over to New Bern from this site represented the last of what were sort of unattached tightly packed urban homes from 100 years ago….much different than row homes… Damn, that character was pretty good just the way it was….remaking that with actual row homes would have been an awesome recreation of the old neighborhood’s feel.
Why? Topic has been previously covered, but here it is again in short. Many of these projects hire the same architecture firm. The developers are not Raleigh-based and have one primary goal – to generate an acceptable return for their investors. To do this, the architect is provided with very specific criteria to work with…a list of ingredients to make the receipt (numbers) work. The outcome of this process are these mediocre buildings. It’s the sad reality about the business of apartment development.
With that said, the right balance between financial considerations and producing well-designed buildings has not been achieved and there’s plenty of room for improvement. Hopefully, someone gets it right sooner rather than later.
Speaking of new development that has the potential to be transformative – someone please provide an update to the 301 and 404 Hillsborough projects?
I am going to go by John532 from now on so I don’t get confused with other Johns here! In any case, @John, also consider that the budget for apartment development is so tight that the fees to the architect are also constrained. This too stifles creativity since the firm can’t afford to pay its people to work for nothing. They end up just re-using details from other projects that they know work. It’s pretty sad all around the only entities that can change the course are 1) a city that won’t allow monotonous design or 2) a developer who cares about the community.
PS: for those who might wonder, 532 is nothing bible related, it’s just my apartment number.
My opinion: I think the yellow and white apartment building on Hillsborough st. may be the worst one. Looks like a cheap part of miami or something. Every time I go by it I just shake my head. I hope we do not continue building those.
Would be nice to get some more unique buildings like some of the projects they have coming up in Durham. I think the Dillon and union station is a step in the right direction. I personally enjoy seeing more beautiful architecture with stone, brick, wood you see with older historic buildings, as opposed to just the glass buildings that seem to be going up now. The hybrid of old and new with the dillon is also great.
I love going into larger cities and seeing all these historic beautiful buildings. looking up and seeing the trim and amazing stone work.. and I often think to myself.. 50-100 years from now.. would someone think the same of the buildings / apartment buildings they are putting up now.
@Bob148, I hear what you are saying and have no love for that building either but I can assure you that the cheap parts of Miami look way worse than that.
@bob148/John532 – You must be talking about 1301 Hillsborough? I couldn’t agree more. The design is worse than bad … the epitome of cheapness.
I saw Highwoods is buying Charter Square South. Maybe the developer can take that money and actually start building the North tower…
@Jeff
I hope so. I have to admit that I am getting disappointed with how long it has taken with N Charter and the 19 Story Edison. The 6 story stick builts are flying off the shelves but it takes forever to get these bigger projects going with the exception of Kane moving right in and getting started. Hopefully the new project at the end of Glenwood South will move right along!!!
Wait….I thought Highwoods was buying the Edison site (Reliable Loans etc), and that Highwoods was quoted as saying they have no immediate plans for the site. Are they also buying Charter Square south? I thought somebody else was buying that (though the point about rolling that cash north to Charter Square north is still valid).
Well I know everyone is disappointed in office towers not going forward, but the real path to a vibrant downtown and things like viable grocery stores and such is residents…and that is happening…so I think the glass is more than half full on the development front….
Yeah, Highwoods is buying both. I hope the Edison gets reworked as a combo residential and office, like PNC Plaza. I wouldn’t mind a “sister” for PNC. (Mind you, not a copy, but a similar sized and designed building).I thought the “Edison office” was pretty bland.
I would love to see a building that has a hotel for the first 20+ floors then condo/residential for the rest. The Soleil was going to have this, but obviously that didn’t work out at the time. I think something like this on Glenwood or in the lot between PNC and SkyHouse would be good.
I would absolutely love to see the Soleil project completed!
@bob148, I am not sure that the UDO is in alignment with the idea of a tall hotel/residential project anywhere along Glenwood Ave. I suppose it could still happen but it would require a developer to go before the city.
I think a tall hotel/condo combo is definitely in the works downtown. I personally think the N&O/Above the Fold lot makes perfect sense. A nice hotel with a second floor terrace overlooking Nash Square would be a great addition to downtown, and nobody could argue a 500ish story building would be out of place on Salisbury St.
What I like about this site is that it’s very active with discussion of the Raleigh downtown scene – most of the other ‘skyscraper fan’ sites can go for months with nothing happening.
I’m with the other posters on digging the idea of a hotel/condo tower.
As far as filling out the commercial space, we’ve noticed that RedHat could be a candidate for expansion. When will they need a new tower? I’ve heard they’re already to capacity, and there’s more heads coming….h ttp://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/techflash/2016/09/red-hat-grows-headcount-by-25-percent-in-first.html
Could you imagine if they’d consider an office/condo tower? (like PNC tower). The RedHat tower is already surrounded by residential (including SkyHouse)…
John, yeah I understand the objective points that explain why all the apartment buildings look the same…I’m more shaking my fist at a cloud and asking why these are the objective criteria we are stuck with nowadays (instead of say, making a statement to some other part of civilization other than investors, or why projects can’t happen without investors wagging the project’s tail, etc.)
Steven, some hotel rooms overlooking Nash Square is my dream as well (and actually returns Nash square to a historic use as it was once the foremost hotel laden square among them in town. Two huge (by historic standards) ones were demolished in the 70’s and 80’s, the Carolina (City Hall site currently) and the Park Hotel (N&O parking lot). Berkley was a hotel too.
Word is the smokey hollow project will start demolition in February.
Also for those of you hoping for technology expansions in the City or the region for that matter, the Governors office needs to change over to Cooper. I don’t want to get too political here but I know that several tech companies are very unhappy with HB2, most notably, but most of their other nonsensical legislation produced by the NC General Assembly is producing very real (I know for a fact) pushback on growth, expansions, etc. of progressive technology companies in the City and region. Those if you on this site mostly care about downtown and I can tell you with certainty Downtkwn has lost out on more than one significant corporate expansion as a direct result of Patsy Mcrory and the NCGA’s backwards legislation over the last few years, but has been amplified in the last 2.
Agreed with U.J. – I’m pretty sure HB2 was the hang up with getting prelease tenants for funding for the Edison office. Also, there are no new tenants coming to the Raleigh market, it’s simply people moving from submarket to submarket, since HB2 created a wait-and-see attitude with most out-of-state companies. And well, we’re still waiting..
I think that Red Hat is growing but the true additional headcount are and will continue to be in Boston and overseas. And as Red Hat becomes more “cloud minded” it’s local staff will continue to be “work from anywhere” putting a serious dent in the need for the more administrative roles …IMHO. :-)
Ken,
You read my mind. I think Red Hat’s the most logical company to make the Edison a reality. Highwoods was part of the team that made PNC (or, RBC at the time) happen, and I hope they (still) see the value in putting hotel rooms or condos with first class views on top 20ish stories of office space. Some of that might have to do with what Red Hat (or whoever the anchor tenant is) wants. If they want a signature building to highlight their brand, then the likelihood goods up.
Mark,
I didn’t know that about Nash Square. My idea came from the Aloft hotel in Asheville, that has a third floor balcony that overlooks Biltmore Ave and the mountains. I envision something like that, with rocking chairs and fancy cocktails. I hope at some point the stuff on the south side (other than Whisky Kitchen) get redeveloped, and the new town hall is vertical. Frankly, I don’t think the city needs to take up that whole block, at the very least they could build a tower and consolidate their employees in one building, then lease the rest of the block to private developers (because at some point in the future the city will probably need to expand again).
Uncle Jesse,
I understand what you’re saying, but political discussions online … well I don’t need to describe what they become. I love politics, but this board is pretty congenial, which is super rare. We all know Raleigh’s a moderate place, but even here things could get pretty vitriolic in a hurry.
I heard that the Edison office tower is done. It will not happen, not really sure if this is true or not. Below is the link from a forum.
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=205777&page=10
Daniel,
I’m sorry for the confusion. When I said “Edison” I meant the Edison site (that was recently sold to Highwoods), I didn’t meant that specific 19 story proposal called the “Edison Tower”, which is, as you said, “done.” We were talking about what kind of development we want in its place. Highwoods’ CEO recently said the new proposal “could” be taller than the old 19 story proposal. The only reason I used “Edison” is because I didn’t want to type out “that big site between Skyhouse and PNC Plaza.”
Scott Cutler representing Development Services
Advisory Committee will speak to the city council this Tuesday Oct. 4th 7 pm to request a
text change in feet concerning 12 , 20 , 40 story projects . I would love to see @ least
100 feet added to each height level !
Thank you Dwight,
And agree with you I do…
New Raleigh just posted some new renderings of the smokey hollow project also confirmed that a Publix will be in it.
TBJ has two interesting articles today,
The first is that an “urban scale” Target is going in the bowling alley across from NCSU and that Citrix’s GoTo software branch has been sold off and is looking for some space downtown. The article says the company has 40 employees but is looking for a space where they can grow.
@Johnk
Do you have a link?
The New Raleigh web site doesn’t show as still being active?
Please and thank you!
@Robert, check NewRaleigh”s Instagram https://www.instagram.com/p/BK_dVNYh8r5/?taken-by=newraleigh
Thank you John 532
They are most active on Facebook (if you can stand all the political posts…. it’s a bit much for me and I usually agree with them).
I have mixed feelings about the Alley. I like the idea of these urban-concept stores like the Harris Teeter in North Hills or actual urban like other cities have. I also am probably in the minority, but I think some chain stores in moderation could provide some of the anchors for continued retail development downtown. On the other hand, the Alley is one of the few old places on Hillsborough St that I actually have been to and like. I’ll be sad to see them go, but they seem to indicate they have plans to move/update somewhere else. Hope it is nearby, but I’ll miss the retro feel.
@Jeff, maybe the Alley will move to Glenwood South near (or in) the Smokey Hollow project?
As for the comment about chains, I have to agree with you. In a fantasy world, it would be terrific to have nothing but wildly successful independent retailers but it’s totally unrealistic. EVERY single urban area today has chain stores and they come with the territory in today’s world. That said, I certainly prefer some chains over others. I am fine with a mini-Target but would feel differently if it were a mini-WalMart.
The best we can hope for is some strategically located chains to anchor our urban retail corridors in order to provide foot traffic throughout the neighborhoods so that cool independent businesses can thrive.
I was told that the alley was moving to Durham
John532, exactly!
Some chains are fine, especially ones that try to compliment and area and not run out local competitors (American Apparel comes to mind). And Target is usually a good area anchor, but as a replacement for the Alley, well…..that 100% sucks. Many many college kids (and adults) spend a lot of time there, especially on weekends. Its something to do beside just eat and drink. Target would be better served to say go in the old Kerr Drugs space at Mission Valley, and Hillsborough St would be better served by not ramming so much generic crap down its throat.
Steve, I hear you and under normal circumstances I would not bring up politics on this board but the fact is the current governor and legislature are crausing MAJOR real measurable and quantifiable negative problems for Raleign. While not directly downtown, I learned today that the jobs Deutche Bank had promised for Raleigh (300 jobs @ $100k/average salary) is actually 1000 jobs….. All of which are going to Jacksonville Florida. This information was provided by a senior executive at Deutche. We are talking about 1000 jobs at an average salary of $100,0000 per year. DO THE MATH: that’s $100,000,000 per year in salaries alone….PER YEAR!!!!!
The current governor and legislature are a VERY real problem for this City and region. Downtown Raleigh is hurting as a result of these imbeciles and their ideological and non-rational legislation. If you care about this City’s development, you MUST vote in November to change as much of NC’s leadership as you can influence!.
Good grief dude, trying to take a break from politics, 600000 million other outlets for that garbage. This is one if the few that pretty much stays away from it. Things will come and things will go including all of us. Is the tail wagging the dog or the dog wagging the tail just hope all can live here in Raleigh regardless of RCCR not just one type of each or else you will be unwelcome and run out of this town.
Don’t become what you despise and chive on
Sounds like Deutche Bank would’ve brought some pretty major tower construction downtown. Now they aren’t. Seems very applicable to discussions on downtown Raleigh’s urban growth.
To participate in any civic activity to promote and advocate for the city center is an act of local politics. Given that the city and its center do not operate in a vacuum and that we, as Americans, are compelled to participate in our government by design, I think that political conversation that impacts the cause we all share is legitimate.
Tyler ending his post with “chive on” is all I need to know about this person. Good grief is right. Truth of the matter is: Uncle Jesse is 100% correct, politics matter to our city, considering we are a CAPITAL city, and right now the politicians in charge are hurting us. No way to argue that.
Start a new thread if you want to talk politics. If new leadership is voted in, they will also drive away business with their policies. Please leave this thread to its organic purpose or some thing relevant. And I’m someone who is not very happy with current leadership. Please use another forum if you want to gripe about Government, unless it directly affects the topic.
John and Jake, then run for office if it’s so important, that German bank is about to fail, pay attention, if they would have promised a high rise 6 months ago it would never have happened and all the complaining would start about the city this and city that.
Politics should play as little as possible in real estate, they just need sensible safety and future growth guides and then they need to get the hell out of the way.
If you really think a non government or publicly traded company or UNC system public funded school won’t do something because of a bathroom then I will sell you a bridge over the Atlantic Ocean.
It’s Always about money
anyway we should all have a beer together I am sure t would be fun.
I have to agree with Jesse. Look, NC is a swing state, and Raleigh is the capital city. This city lives and breathes politics during election years. If anyone feels need to bust someone’s chops for bringing up politics other than local… they need to be reminded where and when they live.
Because we’re a swing state, and because we’re a capital city… local politics, state politics, and national politics are ALL pertinent to discussions of the city.
I would fully agree that our current state government is causing problems for the city’s image, and it could be why it’s been a slow news year for RC. I’m sure our current governor will be replaced, but the legislature is obviously gerrymandered beyond control. For that… I’d like to remind EVERYONE, the most important race by far is the NC Supreme Court race. If Mike Morgan can defeat Bob Edmunds, then democrats can overturn the gerrymandered district maps from the general assembly, and turn this state into an actual democracy again, instead of a banana republic.
I agree that it would be great to keep your political views off this thread. This is a great site to discuss upcoming Raleigh projects and events without all the negative political view points from one side or the other. Although agreed – we should all express ourselves.. I feel it would be great if you did this in another outlet more fitting in nature. Thanks!
Back to the actual conversation – I definitely see both sides of the Alley – I like the historical value of it and its been great for many.. but also think having “an urban Target” would be a great opportunity for the area… especially the students.
It’s not busting chops, just looking for a place to talk Raleigh Real Estate with out the constant pounding of politics which is all non sensible in every way. Crooks crooks crooks the entire lot from top to bottom, left to right. Not worth another breath on these bottom feeders in politics. A bottle of beer would do a better job than any of them.
Last word on this as respect for Leo is greater than politics any day.
Again, to immerse yourself into discussions about the issues of the city center is a political action. As citizens within a structured government that is supposed to be for the people and by the people, all of our discussions are political at their core as launched by our founding fathers’ design.
I suspect that the it’s not the political discourse that is causing the stir on this thread but rather the idea of its partisanship.
Mad respect for Leo. Mad love for the city of Raleigh. All intentions to stay engaged and political when necessary.
Deutche Bank is almost bankrupt and have not heard of any plans for them to come to raleigh. Link? I was talking to Kane staff today and forgot to ask about timeframe on Smokey Hollow. It’s all about the Dillon right now as they as going 150mph. as for politics lets stay away from it. As one reporter from Indy week asked Bonner & Mary about supporting $15 minimum wage for companies in raleigh they both said they were all in until the reporter stated why doesn’t the City start with itself…..silence…. hypocrites.
@BC, with all due respect, saying to stay away from politics and then making a very political statement about council members in the very same post confuses me.
As a student at NCSU, I can say that the Alley is going to be missed. I go often, and love the old style that it has. But I will also say that a Target would be extremely valuable to the students here. I have mixed feelings.
Political topics always gets my moderator juices flowing, following closely to keep things civil. So far, I haven’t had to drop any comments as everyone is being relatively ok here.
First, I don’t mind the political comments but keep them civil. Use data to back your arguments instead of anecdotes that you take as fact. Recognize others’ opinions because EVERYONE disagrees with you to a certain degree. Make your point in a way that educates rather than belittles others.
Just be nice about it. If that’s too hard, you’re out of here.
In real life, I actually would love to talk politics but not on the blog or the internet really. The problem has been how heated and emotional folks get about it so I generally, in life and online, stay away from it.
To give you an admin point of view, those commenting on this site rarely get blocked and social networks and major news outlets have far, FAR worse comments than this group here.
I want to thank you all for the respect and class you’ve brought so far to the comments of this blog.
Leo , You Are Super ! Man What A Site That We Have To Look Forward To Everyday ! THANKS LEO !
Hello All – regarding the brownstones originally discussed here.. I’ve noticed they have started on them. I see one is already on the 3rd floor. Again – I’m definitely excited about these… and hope that someone puts more in a different location as well.
Yeah, DRA has a video posted on Facebook of the “wall raising” ceremony at Hargett Place. It’s like 20 minutes, but there are some interesting short speeches about the project. Interesting note: the team behind Hargett Place said their next project is to build townhomes for “teachers, fire fighters, and police officers” somewhere downtown. So, hopefully more high quality (albeit not as fancy) townhomes downtown should be in the works.
The land has been cleared for this project but I can’t find anything online about it anymore. I can’t even find the city’s site review for it anymore. It makes me wonder if it’s been pulled for resubmittal. If that’s the case, it wouldn’t bother me because the second iteration of this proposed building was ugly. The first one proposed prior to the financial crisis was really well designed.
http://www.raleighmsa.com/images/projects/DowntownRaleigh/BoylanFlats/BoylanFlats-RaleighNC-10.jpg
It has approved site under SR-66-16 not sure if building permits issued but coming if grading permits issued.