East Hargett Street Rezoning Case to Watch


Corner of East and Hargett

A rezoning request was submitted to the city for a few properties around the 400 block of East Hargett Street. This is directly north of The Lincoln apartments. (which is almost finished) It’s mostly surface parking and some bare land that used to be a small playground. In recent weeks, that playground and fencing has vanished.

Jump to the city’s development activity page for more.

Case Z-27-15 wants to have a zoning for neighborhood mixed-use with a maximum height of 4 stories. The urban limited zoning suggests buildings that go right up to the sidewalk with parking, if included, behind the building.

Not much else going on here but it’s one to keep an eye on. A little birdy told me to expect residential here. Given that the parcels in this request add up to only 1 acre, I would guess that townhomes similar to Peace Street Townes or The Ten could be it.

Click for larger

By the way, it’s a joy to see surface parking vanish also.

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  1. I love seeing all these surface parking lots being built up, as well… but I do think it’s extremely short sighted not putting any ground floor retail/restaurant space, as they did with The Lincoln. If more townhomes go in here, will probably be the same case. Ground floor storefront space might not be in high demand right now, but that will most certainly not be the case within another 5 years.

  2. 1 acre is small when you think in a suburban context but it’s quite large in an urban area. That would be plenty for a multi-story apartment building. At a density comparable to the Lincoln you could fit about 120 units there.

    I don’t have a problem at all with buildings this far east, right on the edge of Oakwood, being all-residential. Especially given that it’s right next to the cemetery. This sort of project provides the ‘rooftops’ to support a greater concentration of retail further towards the center of town.

    Now, if something immediately facing Moore Square were developed without retail, THAT would be a disappointment.

  3. I agree with orulz, as well. It will be impossible to get retail with every residential project. Unfortunately, not only the market conditions would not allow that, but the NIMBYs, as well. Of course, this is where high-rises offer an advantage with their higher density numbers.

    Anyway, I would love to see something a bit taller than 4 stories, but the area is transitional and there is nothing wrong with a low-rise, provided it’s attractive and contributes to the urban fabric of Downtown Raleigh.

  4. What DT Raleigh needs is a heat map of housing over the last few years to build the case for retail investment. The city and its planning department need to stop being so flippant about downtown’s future and start marketing. Raleigh isn’t so big that it’s known far and wide in the way that we know it. The way I see it is we have two options. The first is to take control of our brand and market. The second is to sit back and let others tell us who we are by them differentiating themselves (whether true or untrue) from us. Unfortunately we are doing the latter and we are letting the other cities in the Triangle, the state and region define us. ….and how they are defining us is not interesting or exciting because they are desperately trying to steal Raleigh’s thunder.
    I wish I knew how to make this sort of map/web page. I’d do it myself.

  5. It would be real nice if this turned out to be another Lincoln sized condo. I touched on this on the last thread after reading a comment by Raven about Modern Style homes being built in East Raleigh. The area east of Downtown obviously borders a lower income area of Raleigh. It’s good to see the transition taking place. This area has huge potential form DTRal expansion and it will be interesting to watch it play out over the next 10 years. The Lincoln, the Ten, and what is shaping up to be a grocery store at Stones Warehouse are giving the area nice forward movement. Another site as suggested here would be sweet.

  6. An acre site gives you a building the size of The Paramount. That building has about 85 units of various sizes, parking amenities and a modest recreation deck. But, that’s essentially an 8 story building that cascades down a hill for a total of ten floors top of hill to bottom. There’s no way to get 120 units on that site with only 4 floors unless the units were tiny and had zero parking, outdoor space or amenities. Maybe you’d get 50 units on the site?

  7. Lincoln has 224 units on twice as much land, in a 4-5 story configuration.

    True you might not get 120 units in a building that does not exceed 4 stories, but you might get 80 or 100, which would still be entirely realistic from a developer’s perspective.

  8. You have to remember that Paramount as a condo building has bigger units than apartments tend to.

  9. “Bidclerk Projects Near Raleigh NC ” is showing a 12 story hotel that describes demolition of a office bldg. & 2 houses to start March 1st. 2016. Sounds like 603 S. Wilmington St. to me !

  10. 8 months is nothing in planning a development. Most sites are 1-2 years if not longer. Look at Charter North & Edison. 1. finding site or available land for your vision 2. offer to purchase & contract with terms acceptable to both parties (good luck) . 3.hiring all needed for project. Your already in the hole for attorney & real estate etc 4. CAC meetings & rezoning 5. hiring more surveyors, engineer, soil testing, 6. preliminary plans & responding to demands of NIMBY’s from CAC etc. 7. bankers ugh. 8. meeting current UDO, building code and plan review, planning commission, council approval if needed 9. approved site & plat issues 10. construction drawings for stormwater, road, and water/sewer improvements to serve site. 11. Plat with CD’s for plan review and building plans. 12. submittal of plans for review 13. responding to comments by City staff. 14. maybe submit for building permits…..wow 8 months lol didn’t even deal with HOD (historic overlay district-save that old house that neighborhood didn’t like till you wanted to tear it down) issues and moving demo of site….

  11. As BC has mention earlier , The Residence Inn is suppose to start in the fall . Hopefully we may see 5 cranes @ the same time downtown next year with Charter North , two hotels , The Edison ,hopefully The Dillon ! Very Good !

  12. ^^Yes! What is the status with the hotel on Salisbury St across from the L? I have not heard a start date on this as of yet. Anyone in the know?

  13. I had wondered if the individual lots in that area would be combined into a single development. Now it’s happened. Good news!

    Another recombination possibility exists at NE corner of Martin and East St. which is across the street and east from the Lincoln. All lots south of Wintershaven Apartments (about 3/4 acre) are in the hands of the same owner according to iMaps.

  14. FYI. I recently noticed survey flagging at SE corner of East and New Bern St. so I decided to check ownership in iMaps. It appears Empire LLC purchased the lot (0.95 ac) on 4/2015 for 700k.

    This parcel is right up the street from the rezoning case we have been discussing this thread. Things are really starting to happen on the east side of town.

  15. It is about time something happened on this side of town. There is massive potential for some good [urban] redevelopment. There is room for contemporary and old/historic designs, but most important is the existing grid, which can help any new developments stand out.

    I lament for the loss of prime real estate to one-of-the-same kind of development, such as Blount Street Commons. The neighborhoods East of the CBD can offer opportunities for some nice brownstones, which has always been my complaint. I would like to see entire blocks developed in that manner, but at this point in time the land isn’t there :(

  16. Considering how rough the area between Boylan Heights and Ray Price used to be, and how fast the area has been ‘gentrified’ within the past 10 years, I think the east side will follow at a quicker pace. The land is cheaper and the current residents don’t have much political clout. Tearing down the Chavis Heights projects has already made a big impact in the area. The city tried the same thing at Walnut Terrace but that area will remain the same as long as Kings Motel and the homeless center are nearby. A ‘North Hills’ style of development at the Hammond rd interchange of the beltline or a stadium at the dog food factory would be the true catalyst for change in the area. As far as the east side goes, yes the yuppies will price the older black folks out of the area.

  17. Redevelopment East and South of downtown is inevitable. There seems to exist a lot of space that could turn things around for the city (i.e. real estate taxes) as well as the people who live there already – maybe similar to the way some older residents benefited from Kane’s vision for North Hills East.

    I don’t like the idea of displacing people, so I don’t favor such outcome, unless these people live under dangerous conditions. Also, it is hard to imagine that the city would allow gang activity to grow in those areas as more and more people move there. This should benefit existing and future resident. Overall, I am excited to see interest East and South of downtown.

  18. Although, this sheds a light of hope: as some of you surely know, Ted Reynolds (guy who did Quorum Center) owned the Greyhound site, but in the article above it appears he deeded it back to Greyhound, saying “I have stepped aside from the Greyhound site because I have an opportunity to move forward with another building that’s bigger in downtown,” —- ok…. ok….. so the Greyhound site will be ANOTHER suburban, six story apartment building (aka a huge waste of the space), but at least it sounds like Mr. Reynolds has something better in store. Fingers crossed (I’m getting tired of saying that phrase for Raleigh)

  19. I’m ok with it. Especially after Reynolds stated that he pulled out because he has plans to build a bigger building. I’m totally ok with infill in this area with maybe a few 15 story towers peppered throughout. So long as we get ground floor retail along the street facing sides, I think we will be golden.

  20. I am very sadden to hear that Wayne Maiorano is not seeking reelection for city council , so that he can spend more time with his two daughters & wife . I can certainly understand Wayne’s reason . I have heard that Mr. Reynolds is very interested in the 301 Hillsborough St. site .

  21. @Jake… I also think the greyhound site is a missed opportunity… that site could have been developed as more of a showcase project.

    I do remember some of the original development ideas for that site… basically the plan then was to develop it similar to what they are doing at the Stones Warehouse site… basically 1-3 story max! So this is an improvement over the first ideas… but far less than the sites true potential!

    In this case… I think… bigger would have been better.

  22. I am very sadden to hear that Wayne Maiorano is not seeking re-election for city council so that he can spend more time with his family . I can certainly understand this ! Also I have heard that Mr. Reynolds is very interested in the 301 Hillsborough St. site !

  23. Makes sense that Reynolds is interested in the 301 Hillsborough site now that Kane has shifted his focus over to the Dillon site. Plus a somewhat attractive infill that will move a downtown grocery store feasibility up quite a few notches.

  24. Plus, Reynolds has already had a few tower proposals for the 301 Hillsborough site over the past 10 or so years!

  25. so the Greyhound site will be ANOTHER suburban, six story apartment building (aka a huge waste of the space)

    OK so say what you will about this proposal, and I agree that it is a letdown since I was hoping for a vibrant neighborhood in the blocks east of Glenwood. But this is absolutely not suburban in any way. Six stories tall, lot line to lot line, in this location. It is also somewhat less disappointing than Link IMO given that it’s sort of on the edge of the NC State Government district.

    There’s the old adage that retail follows rooftops, and in order to get those rooftops, you do wind up needing some single use residential buildings. If all the space between here and Peace Street gets filled up with midrise stick built apartments with no retail, then I will be seriously disappointed.

  26. I’m wondering if Ted Reynolds will dust off The Hillsborough plans, maybe go with a taller version of the Quorem Center, or just come up with something completely different.

  27. William , JMO , Something different ! I hope that I heard right & it is 301 Hillsborough that Mr. Reynolds wants .

  28. I would not hold my breath for Ted Reynolds to revive The Hillsborough. Besides, if he already had the land (Greyhound bus station), he could have easily used that, and even sold or shared part of it with another developer. Please, don’t think that I’ve heard anything with regards to Mr Reynolds’ plans… I haven’t. However, I doubt he would go after 301 Hillsborough, since he has already tried [unsuccessfully] to build there. Hopefully, I am wrong.

    As for the most recent proposal, I happen to like the building. It is a little different – yes, I know, JDavis designed it, so it can’t be different than others, etc, etc, etc. – and while I wish it was at least twice as tall, we can’t expect much these days. At least it is not proposed for the CBD, like that stupid Edison Apts waste of space. Ideally, two buildings between 10 and 15 floors over a shared parking deck could have been built, but the urban form and design of the proposed building is not as bad.

    @Dwight: Sorry to hear about Wayne’s decision not to run again. He was a voice of reason and I hope someone with a similar attitude will win in my district. I, too, understand his reasons and can’t blame him. It is a good sign when people seek to spend more time with their families. It speaks volumes about their characters.

  29. I like to jog afterwork and one thing that I have noticed about the area where the Link, the Qurom Center, and now this building are located(from a topography standpoint) is at the top of a hill. My point in boring you with this is, that in these locations, at 10-12 story building could make an impact on the sky line such as the Quorem Center does. Where as, we could build a 15 story building much further down West and Harrington St and those building could be taller but have less Skyline impact. Just some food for thought. The good news is that there are plenty of gravel parking lots in that area that can quickly be developed.

  30. Bob, your point is not “boring”. In fact, you are raising an excellent point about topography. This is precisely what could help even small projects stand out and make our downtown look a bit better. If we had a completely flat downtown, then it would look too boring and too uninspired. Our skyline would have looked far worse if it wasn’t for the topography.

    Long story short, we could use the landscape to our advantage. Buildings smaller than 15 floors in the Warehouse District could really complement the rest of the skyline, IF we stop building small East of Harrington Str. Glenwood South is also a great candidate for such development patterns. I certainly wish that the former Greyhound Bus Station could be developed differently, with a couple of buildings between 10 and 20 floors, but even a 6-story building could make a positive impact, besides bringing more residents on that side of downtown.

    The next best chance we’ll have to a high-rise (I hope) is the parcel adjacent to Quorum Center, to the East. That corner lot is golden, and so is the parking lot directly to the East and North of the round Marriott Hotel. Hopefully, bigger projects will end up there.

  31. On Tuesday 7-21-15 , The City Council will consider The Dillon Project & The 301 Hillsborough St. / 320 W. Morgan St. site !
    The Lundy Group has offered 3,100,000 for both lots . .50 acre @ 301 & .68 @ 320 W. Morgan St.
    Does anyone know anything about The Lundy Group ?

  32. Dwight, when I hear The Lundy Group I think of a couple of 10-story buildings, possibly with LEED certification. In other words, kiss any possibility for high-rise development goodbye. I hope I am wrong, though. Best case scenario: A couple of buildings 20- and 10-stories high with LEED certification. It may not feel bad to many, though, since the 23-story Hillsborough (in its final incarnation) wasn’t going to be LEED certified, so the height will be the same. Also, a 10-story LEED certified building would be closer to the 15-story Reynolds Tower 2 (it was only a vision, not a serious proposal). The key thing is to go for LEED certification, but if whatever goes there is less than 20 floors, it will be a wasted opportunity. We’ll see…

  33. @ Dwight

    Just to confirm: $3,100,000.00 for 1/2 an acre? Is that a lot for the CBD of Raleigh?

    Please and thank you!

  34. @Robert

    I think Dwight is saying 3.1M for both lots, 301 Hillsborough (0.50ac) and 320 W Morgan (0.68ac). Based on iMaps data the acreage stated looks correct.

  35. Robert / Stew , It’s both lots ! Both Projects , Mr. Kane’s & 301/320 are under “Special Items ” on the council agenda ! I hope that “The Lundy Group ” will think outside of the box on this project !

  36. It would be a huge let down not to have a minimum of 15 stories in this location. I can make a point as to why a 6 story project is good for the Glenwood South area, but this location is too close to the city core. Needs to be tall. It’s capped at 20 and that would be ideal to get all 20.

  37. The Lundy Group needs to stay in Johnston County where they belong. It is so disheartening to see all these prime lots being wasted by mediocre developers. This is the same group that has been trying to get a North Hills style development out of the ground at S. Saunders and 440, but haven’t been able to pull it off. I’m not expecting anything grand from them, and that’s assuming they can actually get something out of the ground. It seems like Raleigh is dead set on becoming an ugly, much less interesting version of DC.

  38. Brad, their Penmarc development is nothing like North Hills. Their site plan shows a pretty standard strip mall/ acres of surface parking.

  39. @Mike It’s a mixed use project, like North Hills. It’s just not as “urban” and dense.

  40. I don’t want to assume the worst with the Lundy Group at the is point. They’re buying some high dollar land and Kane has already made the point that you need to go “up” if you’re going to make that situation profitable. So let’s hope that Lundy is serious about putting something nice on these prime locations

  41. When you can , read today’s article in TBJ concerning the sale of 301 Hillsborough St.
    There are some interesting facts concerning
    the 10 day bid sale & Mr. Reynold’s comments !

  42. In case someone has any doubts about what our city leaders accomplished, read what Ted Reynolds said:

    “Reynolds says this time around any project proposal would have to be capped at 20 stories high per the new zoning allowances, but he is working with his same architect team as before, the former KlingStubbins firm that’s now owned by Jacobs.”

    So, getting something taller may not even be allowed, despite of our belief that upscaling would be possible. Not that Ted Reynolds – let alone The Lundy Group – would do anything above 20 floors, anyway :( At the end, I expect nothing less than a waste of space, but I truly hope to be wrong.

  43. @ Ernest

    I have to say that I was shocked when I read his statement as well…holding my breath ;-)

  44. If real estate market was begging for something over 20 floors, then it would still happen. However, the market demand and the land scarcity is likely not to that point yet to drive that.

  45. @ mike

    No disrespect intended, however Durham is building s 26 story building. And yes I know they don’t have a lot of office space so that need it, but that building is a mixed use property and this site should be know different…IMHO! :-)

  46. On July 16th , the city council met behind closed doors to talk about incentives toward a
    company wanting to relocate to Raleigh . I hope that this would be a downtown move !

  47. I’d like to see Ted Reynolds propose something about 25 stories on the 301 site and see what happens.

  48. Isn’t the 20 story cap really associated with a height and not an actual floor count? Didn’t we go over this here before? A commercial building of 20 floors is taller than 20 floors of residential. It’s not hard to imagine a building with more floors than 20 if the use is mostly residential or hotel. According to Emporis, Skyhouse is 264 feet at 23 floors. If one assumes that the standard floor to floor height for a commercial building is about 13 ft., one might assume that a building of similar height to Skyhouse is likely. Does anyone know what height DX-20 allows and whether that height included any crown or just to the roof? I’ve been searching the web to no avail.

  49. I have NO doubt that the people of the Dawson are to blame for this. Or at least I’m just gonna go ahead and blame them regardless. They had a hissy-fit when the sale of this lot was announced, saying that anything over 7 stories or so would be “too tall” for the area. Basically these people moved to the heart of a growing city, and then lost their minds when the city really started growing. I’m sure this strict limit is how the vision-less city leaders compromised with them. Even if I’m wrong, I still blame them simply for being against it. It’s like we have this idea, perfect Raleigh RIGHT in front of us, and we’re taking the steps towards that idea…. but we have cinderblocks attached to our feet, making every step as slow, painful, and convoluted as possible. It’s disheartening, really.

  50. There is one thing that we will not need to “worry” about: Nobody is going to propose anything above 20 floors for the 301 Hillsborough parcel. In fact, we’ll be lucky if anyone goes as high as 20 floors. Even luckier if the developer builds two buildings instead of one monolithic structure; God forbid. “Cap” means “cap”, and this is what we’ll have to live with if the rezoning passes and becomes the standards for the next 20-30 years. A developer is not crazy to propose anything bigger if they have to go through the “Inquisition” just to add a few more floors. The only hope that we have is that the city-wide rezoning doesn’t pass as is, at least for the downtown proper.

  51. You know , the height limit is so inpractial when you look @ 20 stories , 250 feet & 40 stories 500 feet when Charter South is 11 stories & 210 feet ! Any LEED Project would be way above these heights ! I have as always written this to council ! “Unreal ” !

  52. I think what would be perfect is if we just go ahead and get two 20(minimum 15)story buildings here. I agree that one big building would be bad. I also think that one big building hurts the chances of going tall. Hopefully 2 buildings of 15 or higher will help the NIMBY’s in the Dawson understand that they don’t live in Kinston(no offense, I’m from Greenville) and hopefully we can start to move past height issues going forward. I think If someone comes in and tries to propose taller at this point it would cause further delays from needed progress in this area due to all the NIMBY’s complaining. Then we find ourselves waiting another year. If they could approve a 30 story building, maybe I could wait the extra year. But it doesn’t seem plausible at this point.

  53. @randall. Thanks for the link. After calculations, these floor to height ratios make no sense at all. For the mixed use areas, here are the nominal floor to floor heights presumed per the associated max building height:
    3 floors @ 16′-8″ each for 50 feet
    4 floors @ 15′-6″ each for 62 feet
    5 floors @ 15′-0″ each for 75 feet
    7 floors @ ~12′-10″ each for 90 feet
    12 floors @ 12′-6″ each for 150 feet
    20 floors @ 12′-6″ each for 250 feet
    40 floors @ 12′-6″ each for 500 feet
    Does anyone else see what’s wrong here? If this passes unamended, when maximizing floor count, it basically only allows those buildings that can be built with WOOD construction to have taller ceiling heights per floor than those that must be constructed with either steel or concrete. This is stupid. Commercial slab to slab dimensions are more like the ones proposed for shorter buildings while the taller buildings are more aligned with residential. This is just plain asinine. Assuming that the slab thickness is 12 inches and ceiling height for commercial space is 10′, maximizing floor count in a high rise commercial building limits the plenum for all building services to just 18 inches. This is just plain ridiculous.
    Want tall ceilings in your space and a decent plenum? Okay, either give up floors or go into a 3, 4 or 5 story building. rolleyes…..
    Isn’t anyone at the city or its “consultant” doing some simple math when coming up with these limits?
    Slab to slab distances should ideally be 15 feet in a high rise building to allow tall ceiling and plenum located building systems. 20 and 40 story buildings should capped at 300 and 600 feet accordingly, excluding any architectural spire or rooftop mechanicals.

  54. Please everyone write to the city council on these max. heights ! I did attend today’s council meeting . Mr. Kane’s project will be continued on August 4th ! During the conversation , I did not hear anything on # of stories or height from Mrs. Crowder . She did ask about the ground floor retail & how the parking situation would end up . The vote on 301 Hillsborough St. passed 5 to 3 with Mrs. Crowder , Mr. Stephenson , & Mr. Gaylord voting against the sale to The Lundy Group . They were for the sale but they wanted to add the condition that the developer would have to have a grocery store on ground level.

  55. John, I know we have beaten up this dead horse to death way too many times, but these idiotic height restrictions work like a car warranty (5 years/100,000 miles, whichever comes first). I think they mean something along those lines.

  56. So 301 Hillsborough St is a done deal? Did they have any renderings, heights, etc. or was it just the purchase of the land? And so does this include the building with the Flying Saucer in it, or just the two parking lots?

  57. @ Jeff , No it is not a done deal. What the city will do is run a add in The N&O for 10 days. If no one bids higher than 3.1 million by the 10th day , then the city will sell the 2 lots to The Lundy Group . If someone does bid higher, then the city will run that amount in The N&O for 10 days & so forth , until no one bids higher & the city then sells . No plans were presented to council today by The Lundy Group .

  58. Dwight, can you please give us the links to the city council. I can’t remember which article they were listed in. It seems that there was one email address that would redirect to all council members. I apologize if it wasn’t you that gave this information.

  59. Hey Rick , I hope that this is the right e-mail address for all of the council members.
    citycouncilors@raleighnc.gov If this does not go thru , google raleighnc.gov , click on the home page , click on Government & you can kind of guide yourself thru the e-mail process , but I hope I told you right ! Thanks Rick for writing the council ! Take Care !

  60. Did anyone of you attended the City Council meeting? I read about the reactions – the usual NIMBY stuff – but it is different when you are present. Anyway, in today’s N&O I read in an article the following:

    “The Lundy Group wants to build a tower with “residential over commercial over retail with some structured parking,” Jim Baker, the company’s founder, said Monday.”

    So, their plans are for a mixed-use building. The two lots they plan to buy make up most of the block – I don’t think Flying Saucer is included – which will be enough to accommodate a 20-story building with all uses included. Probably it will feature ground floor retail, 5 levels of parking and the other 14 floors will be split between commercial and residential uses. That is, IF The Lundy Group goes for the maximum height.

    Time to write a few emails to the potential developers and maybe we’ll get lucky to get some positive reply.

  61. Ernest , I have a earlier post on , I did attend
    yesterday’s council meeting . Mr. Kane will submit new plans by the end of the week & it sounds to me that these plans will be concerning
    ground floor retail & the parking situation . Heard yesterday from a very reliable source that the two towers are on go for his project .
    “I love it”!

  62. Wilmington St Hotel
    Salisbury St Hotel
    Edison Commercial
    N Charter Sq
    Kane Developments(could be 3 buildings)
    Lundy Developments( here is to hoping for 2-20 story buildings)
    L building(just took its first residents this week)
    Lincoln(finishing up)
    Gramercy(under way)
    Edison residential(underway)
    Greyhound Location(another possible apartment building)
    The ten(underway)
    Apartments at Peace and Wilmington(underway)
    New possible apartment building across from The Lincoln
    Grocery Store at Stones Warehouse
    Union Station

    I know this leaves some longing for hight( I want argue that), but we got some serious momentum. Just imagine the density improvement to DT after this laundry list is completed.

  63. @Dwight: Yes, I read your earlier comment. I was just looking for reactions on the comments that people made. Did anyone say something relevant with regards to height restrictions in downtown? Glad to know that Kane is still considering two high-rises. I truly hope that he addresses the street-level experience in a manner that the city council will be satisfied. Not that the current experience is anything to brag about, anyway.

    @Bob: Indeed, there is something positive to say about the ongoing and upcoming development. By the way, the two parcels that The Lundy Group wants to purchase doesn’t include the entire block, if I am not mistaken. That block is made up of 3 parcels, with the Flying Saucer being on the 3rd/westmost parcel. If anyone has heard otherwise please correct me. I am fine with all the projects you mentioned – Elon Apartments, too – except for the Edison (both office and apartments, with the latter being a TOTAL waste of space) and Site 4 (you didn’t mention that). Yes, I would love to see more height – if market conditions allow, of course – but I am fine with the ongoing projects because they add significantly to the urban fabric.

    I am anxious to see more of The Lundy Group’s proposal. If a “tower” is proposed, and assuming it is a well designed building, with LEED and good street-level experience, I will be happy with it.

  64. An interesting article in the Indy on our upcoming city council races …

    Search on “Dive into Raleigh’s local elections morass”

  65. Ernest , Even Mrs. Crowder did not mention heights . She only mention the retail / parking
    plans .

  66. Dwight, my apologies. I re-worked my message prior to posting it and [accidentally] removed a very important part. The question was about the city-wide rezoning meeting. Sorry for the confusion :( I usually re-read my posts to make sure they make sense, but this one escaped me.

  67. Ernest , No problem ! I so appreciate how you keep us up with great info. on our downtown . Your opinions are very valuable! Really hoping
    for a 20 story project @ 301 Hillsborough !
    Take Care !

  68. @Greg D. Thanks for sharing. That’s a very interesting concept considering size of lot at only 0.06 acres. This works out to approx. 51′ on a side if lot is square. If only we could get this sort of density in other parts of our downtown. Hopefully this project gains some traction.

  69. Greg D – not to burst your bubble, but that’s hardly updated. That page has looked like that for a while now. I want that to happen, too, but if it does, it probably won’t be anytime soon.

  70. Bidclerk Projects Raleigh NC is showing App:
    start date for Charter North June 1 2016 !

  71. Jeff & Josh , A few weeks ago BC listed many things that has to be done for every major project, so many that I can’t name them , plus there are some sewer line issues that has to be
    upgraded . BC said that 1 to 11/2 years is not surprising on some projects. Honestly , I will be happy to see this project start by June . Yes , I’m just like you both , I wanted Charter North to start before The Edison !

  72. First and foremost, I want every project to be successful. I don’t mind waiting another 10 months before Charter Square North breaks ground, as long as the developer gets enough interest to make it worth the while. After all, it is market conditions that will determine if this project will even get off the ground.

    On the other hand, since the foundation is there, already, finishing the exterior will be fast, I assume. My only hope now is that the developer will reconsider and build this high-rise with LEED standards. After all, the original version was going to be 365 feet. I don’t see why this building cannot be redesigned to reach that height.

  73. I just saw the permit for the Greyhound Banner
    Apartments site . It shows being 90 feet high .
    I didn’t see anything on the # of stories .

  74. Dwight, from the rendering we saw, it looks like it will be a 6-story residential building, but if that was to happen we are talking about 6x15ft (=90ft), which is doubtful, unless the developer goes for LEED certification. My guess is that the original plan has been altered to include street level retail with 6 residential floors above it. That will be about 7x13ft (=91ft), which sounds realistic.

  75. @earnest. Some retail will make the project at the greyhound site much more exciting especially considering it will not be tall. With all the residential that has moved into that area, it would be a great location for a grocery store.

  76. I think the whole building is a joke. Getting reaaaal tired of these monolithic suburban apartment buildings taking up entire city blocks that do nothing but encourage more car culture. #losinghope

  77. @jake
    I thought you would have been more excited about the possibility of retail at that location. The Greyhound site is not a huge site so I don’t think it can take up too much room.
    Cars and Parking- I’m on board with you here, were is the parking for this project and the Link going to be? Is there parking underground for the Link? Anybody? Street parking certainly want accommodate these sites. Many of the condos in the Glenwood district do include parking decks but you would think some of these sites will have to include bottom floor parking to make them taller going forward.

  78. I think that any possibility for street-level activity should be exciting, whether it is a small or large lot. We can’t have retail in every project, but this spot would be a nice place for it, especially with so many state employees nearby; you gotta have at least one nice size eatery there.

    As for parking, it is safe to assume that they will integrate it the way other similar projects have. Recycling this idea is pretty safe for an architect and much cheaper for the developer, I guess.

  79. @bob
    The construction site for the Link was a large hole for what seemed like a year as they built an underground deck for the complex. It is likely that the complex at the Greyhound site will have to do the same as the site is only ~40′ longer than the Link site and just as wide. Crossing my fingers.

    The possible lack of retail at the Greyhound site doesn’t concern me too much due to its proximity to Glenwood and the overwhelming possibilities at sites surrounding it. Future development will inevitably capitalize on that need, even the Quorum Center has knockouts on its first deck level for future retail. I tend to look at it as give and take. Two of my biggest concerns for the area as it rapidly grows is the lack of quality streetscaping (curb bump-outs, district identity, safe lighting, proper street stripings, etc…) and open space. Where can all of these people go to escape the confines of their tiny studio apartment and enjoy the day without having to buy a drink or meal and/or making the trek to Nash Sq. or the future Devereux Meadows. Here’s hoping that the city itself can one day provide the resources to address these issues so as not to fall behind growth’s ugly curve.

  80. @Bob – definitely glad to hear there is now a possibility of retail (but I’m wondering if there’s a clear source on this rumor or just pure speculation?) but overall these projects are all becoming “more of the same” – it’s getting repetitive, predictable, and overall not increasing the CHARACTER or our city. Yes, there will be more room for more (rich) people, but that doesn’t excite me as much as, well, anything else really. Sure, it’s a small lot, but big enough to fit something at least taller. And something that doesn’t look like every single other monolithic apartment building going up. If all these apartments are coming, I’d at least like to see more mixed use. Why not have ground floor be retail/restaurant space, 2nd-3rd floors be office, and then have the apartments on top? Just seems like it’d be a better use of the space, in the long run. I think these block-long, suburban style apt buildings are all VERY short sighted.

  81. Jake, I mentioned retail as a possibility because of the height (90ft). I doubt very seriously that the developer will go for a 7-story building without retail, which usually provides the base for another 6 floors built with wooden frame – the norm, these days :( Devon 425 is an exception, of course. They actually built a much stronger structure than The Edison Apartments, Gramercy, etc. At this point, retail is just a speculation. I will be happy if they add retail, but just as happy if the developer opts for a more solid structure with 7 residential floors. I agree with you, though. I wish we had something like Skyhouse built there.

    Rich mentioned something VERY important. Glenwood South (on the Eastern side, especially) would benefit tremendously by a better streetscaping. Yes, it is hard to coordinate every development in a way of creating a more uniform – not faux/fake – pattern. I think that the developers have done a decent job providing some of these features, but the Eastern side of Glenwood South could benefit a lot from Raleigh 2030, if there is indeed something in there about streetscapes. Anything to help our downtown districts feel unique and organic.

  82. I’m afraid that the building may be closer to the rendering we saw and the elevation is why it seems so tall. There is a lower grade on the North side than higher on the South. Thus in total giving you 90 ft but actually 70-75 on the north and south elevations.

  83. Greg D, your comment makes a lot of sense. It didn’t cross my mind, but is the difference really that much? I mean, 15ft-20ft is a pretty noticeable difference in elevation… I need to get back there and check it out again.

  84. Interesting discussions on the retail aspects of dt! I just read an article a couple days back about the lack of space for retail downtown… and very few open spaces available for businesses (small)!

  85. @Ernest, the east side of Glenwood South will be shaped by the realignment of Harrington Street to Peace Street and the new bridge over Peace to the immediate west of the existing one it replaces. A new “road” will parallel capital to the east of the bridge to service the Cotton Mill and businesses as its intersection with Peace. If the park comes to pass on the former Devereux Meadow ball park (now sanitation truck storage), the entire east side of Glenwood South and north of Peace on West St. will open up and blossom. It’s just going to take another few years until after that bridge project is completed.

  86. Hopefully you are right about the blossoming North of peace part of West St – hopefully the businesses there thrive while it all goes down. There’s a sweet new place called Prisma Video up there that A: strives to open a VHS rental section in Sept, B: have music shows, C: movie showings, and D: a classic video game-system room where you can go play old school games. It’s verrrry “Portland” and I love it. I think it’d be a great hangout place for young & hip Raleigh for years to come if supported!

  87. I also like the idea of a walking bridge from that part of capital with the rainbow painted art gallery/shop over Capital to the other side. That whole area with the art gallery has so much potential to be something truly unique.

  88. It’s a major challenge to connect that section of east Capital below Peace St. and I don’t believe that a connection from west of Capital is even on the table. It’s one of the huge sacrifices that was made when Capital was established as a limited access road pouring out of downtown. Several of us tried to change the conversation with the state regarding that stretch of Capital all the way up to Wade but we were not successful in getting them to change that stretch back to the city grid.

  89. @ Ernest : I’m glad that I wrote city council & Mr. Ruffin Hall on the feet height limits on 20 & 40 story projects because Mr . Hall forwarded my e-mail to the planning dept.! Maybe this will do some good ! I hope so !

  90. Dwight, you did good work, once more. I will need to do the same. This insanity needs to stop right here, right now. I was discussing this non-sense today with someone who is neither a native North Carolinian, nor big on densities and urbanity, but she couldn’t believe the height caps in for downtown. We need more people to understand this problem and react. We cannot wait for the market to decide because the market will opt for cities that don’t limit themselves, or for the suburbs.

  91. no height caps. just discussions that have to take place for anything over those heights.

  92. mike, I made a second attempt to have that clarified. If you have any links that could help us understand this issue (height caps) feel free to share them with us, as it is frustrating to discuss an issue that we cannot back up with documentation. Thus far, reading what Mr Reynolds said makes me – and others – a bit uneasy. Hopefully, we’ll get some clarification on that by people who work for the Planning Dept. I surely wish to move forward, away from this debate.

    On the other hand, even if the city allows something taller to be built, the fact that they rezone (scale down) areas for smaller buildings (>= 20 floors) is a general attitude that I cannot agree with. Since I am a tax payer I think I have every right to protest such decisions. If my city leaders waste time with pointless votes and don’t get the most out of city-owned properties, they surely do not serve the best interest of Raleigh, and to an extent the interests of the taxpayers… simply put.

  93. Greg D, I think this settles the debate. I don’t think I have read the article you linked to before, but I have no reason to doubt the interpretation of the new rules, as stated in the article. Thanks for clarifying this for me.

    Of course, there is one thing that I hope that this height cap will not accomplish: to allow subpar designs to move forward, just because the developer meets the minimal criteria. Also, I am not sure I like the whole 40-story/500ft definition of the cap. They should eliminate the number of floors and stick with the 500ft height. It makes it a lot easier for everyone.

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